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Topic: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1 (Read 4914 times) |
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Pedro
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Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #1 on: 2003-09-13 22:34:18 » |
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Nice work on the magazine! It was an excellent reading, and was cool. Thanks for sharing that! 
Pedro
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ElvenSage
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Think for yourself, question authority.
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Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #2 on: 2003-09-14 03:49:41 » |
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I like the design changes. Good work Kharin. For those of you whom didn't catch me on IRC a couple of days ago, I'm back. I just needed some stress releived so I had to walk away from here for a little while. I'm not sure if I'm still being included with the E-Zine and such, but I'd really like to continue working on future issues of it.
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
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JD
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RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #3 on: 2003-09-14 12:39:34 » |
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I was spooked by Hermit's Chinese-commit-genocide piece but for me it was
ruined by its overt anti-Americanism (if that term can be applied to what
appears *in my opinion* to be Hermit's pathological hatred of America).
Hermit writes with unconcealed approval of a situation where the Chinese
commit genocide against the rest of the world. They then disperse around the
world, making vassals of what is left of it, but ensuring economic
prosperity for all (gee thanks). The USA - the prime evil - disintegrates
and nuclear bombs its own cities not long after killing its Chinese citizens
(cue applause). If the Chinese can stoop to it, they may - if the blue-eyed
devils are lucky and the ancestors are willing - begin "civilising" the
Americans. The End.
Was that a joke?
This is precisely the sort of stuff I would expect from the Chinese
propaganda ministry except they would never be crazy enough to imply that
Chinese genocide against the rest of humanity was somehow less onerous that
those damned Yankees turning on their Chinese citizens.
The whole thing reads as one big revenge fantasy against the USA, a
political rant dressed up as a what-if piece. Just look at the statements in
it:
"A boorish Texan was elected President of the United States...the election
of "Dubya" Bush says much about the ignorance and bigotry of the American
people.
...in late 2002 "Dubya" Bush announced that the United States would not
allow any other nation to challenge the American hegemony.
[The USA is a] "rogue nation" carrying out an "insane demolition of the
diplomatic and legal structures which man had spent the last century
developing.
The US never comprehend[ed] economics or power and... [is] paranoid and
xenophobic"
I like the idea, I like the format and I like Hermits style. Tone down the
anti-American bigotry and chauvinism, enter some more plausibility and you
have the makings of a great story.
Incidentally: If history is to be a guide, then be assured China will amount
to zero in terms of global power. It will invert itself as it has done so
many times in its 6,000 year history. China has some advantages over the
West, advantages easily wiped out by us: It is ruthless and devious, it is
not a democracy, it is protectionist, it prostitutes promise of its markets
to steal technology and advantage, its workers are prepared to work for very
little. It is not the USA which is scrabbling to grab as much from its shot
lived strategic advantage, but China. Soon it will be suffering for exactly
the same sort of pressures the West has. It will also have enormous internal
migration and face possible break-up.
China is the Great Red Hope for Yankee haters. It will go the same way as
the USSR. The only way it could really triumph would be to destroy most of
the rest of the world...but 3000 trident-delivered warheads would make sure
that that would be a short lived victory.
Regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
David McFadzean
Sent: 13 September 2003 16:04
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1 me
http://virus.lucifer.com/zine/1.1/
Hermit and Kharin deserve extra scooby snacks for their effort going into
the first issue of the CoV online magazine.
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Hermit
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Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #4 on: 2003-09-14 14:20:43 » |
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Unfortunately for the validity of Jonathan Davis' attempted criticisms, the premis were accurate and recognizable. That's what made the article's Chinese response seem "reasonable", the piece spooky, and the consequences, "plausible".
Some International treaties that the Bush administration has withdrawn from, violated or abandonded:- Anti-Ballistic Missile (1972): The administration scrapped the ABM Treaty between the United States and Soviet Union because it barred development of national missile defenses.
- START II (1993): The U.S.-Russian accord required each side to reduce strategic nuclear weapons from 6,000 to a range of 3,000-3,500 by 2007. Bush unilateraly abroggated this treaty.
- Comprehensive Test Ban (1996): The treaty banned all nuclear test explosions, but the administration says it would limit U.S. research.
- Kyoto Protocol (1997): Aimed at combating global warming, it is backed by 178 nations. Bush rejected it on grounds that it would harm the U.S. economy and exempt developing nations. Bush promised to offer alternatives for dealing with the perceived problems.
- Biological weapons (1995): The administration abandoned the United Nations accord that set out enforcement mechanisms for the treaty. U.S. negotiators said that the treaty threatened industry and national security.
- Land Mine Ban (1997): The administration rejected the treaty, which calls for the destruction of anti-personnel land mines.
- International Criminal Court (1997): The treaty has created the first permanent international tribunal to prosecute war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity. The administration says the accord infringes on U.S. sovereignty and puts U.S. troops at risk.
- Small Arms Control (2001): The administration blocked two key provisions: regulation of civilian ownership of military weapons and restrictions on trade to rebel movements.
- The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child: The United States shares the dubious distinction with Somalia of not having signed this treaty, never mind ratifying it*.
- The Grand Charter of the UN: The Administration has repeatedly ignored or voided provisions of the grand charter, most obviously in Iraq. The idea of a preventive war as advocated in the National Security Strategy runs directly counter to the provisions of the Grand Charter.
- The Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War: The Administration's action in regard to prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq has gutted this treaty of any meaning.
- International convention on Torture: The US has repeatedly engaged in violating this treaty particulary when it has come to dealing with members of suspected terrorist organizations.
I could continue, but then, so could anyone who cared to investigate for themselves.
Jonathan Davis should read the National Security Strategy. This document purports to address the "new realities" of our age, particularly the "proliferation of weapons of mass destruction" and "terrorist networks armed with the agendas of fanatics". The NSS claims that these new threats are so novel and so dangerous that we should "not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting preemptively." This document makes it clear that a threat need not necessarily be military, to draw an attack by the US, but instead blatantly states that the US reserves the right to preemptively or preventively attack (the terms are used interchangeably) any nation which threatens "the preeminence" of the US. This statement, according to military analysts, including Janes and the FAS is largely responsible for the current buildup of Chinese military expenditure.
The US has previously acted against its citizens of Eastern origin, most notoriously during WW II, but the degree of repression levied against Orientals has been second only to that deployed against native Indians.
The trouble with owning weapon systems, no matter how terrifying, is that there is always a temptation to justify their use. For example, the US planned to respond to a potential USSR invasion of Europe in 1968 by turning Western Europe into a nuclear, biological and chemical holocaust (public disclosure of stolen NATO documents by numerous news outlets in 1969). As another example, it is well known that the US has draconian plans to counter internal civil unnrest or the consequences of biocides whether due to biological warfare or other causes. Less well known outside defense circles, is that exercises modelling such responses usually include nuclear options.
I note that the Chinese prediliction to self-destruct was raised by me in private discussion with Jonathan Davis and is a separate issue and not germane to those explored in this "future history." As a final rejoinder, Jonathan Davis' ability to detect "unconcealed approval" of genocide (irrespective of source or target) or "overt anti-Americanism" and "pathological hatred of America" speaks poorly of his ability to differenciate between fiction and reality.
Hermit
*Perhaps because of a powerful Farm lobby objecting to reports such as this and concerned that ratification of the treaty would impact their labor pool:
In the United States, over 300,000 children worked as hired laborers on commercial farms, frequently under dangerous and grueling conditions. Human Rights Watch found that child farmworkers in the United States worked long hours for little pay and risked pesticide poisoning, heat illnesses, injuries, and life-long disabilities. They accounted for 8 percent of working children in the United States but suffered 40 percent of work-related fatalities.
Children working on U.S. farms often worked twelve-hour days, sometimes beginning at 3:00 or 4:00 a.m. They reported routine exposure to dangerous pesticides that cause cancer and brain damage, with short-term symptoms including rashes, headaches, dizziness, nausea, and vomiting. Young farmworkers became dizzy from laboring in 100/F temperatures without adequate access to drinking water, and were forced to work without access to toilets or hand washing facilities.
Agriculture was the most dangerous occupation open to children in the United States and caused high rates of injury from work with knives, other sharp tools, and heavy equipment. An estimated 100,000 children suffered agriculture-related injuries during the year. http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/children/child5.html
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #5 on: 2003-09-15 03:44:52 » |
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Jonathan Davis
> Sent: 14 September 2003 1840
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
>
> I was spooked by Hermit's Chinese-commit-genocide piece but for me it
was
> ruined by its overt anti-Americanism (if that term can be applied to
what
> appears *in my opinion* to be Hermit's pathological hatred of
America).
[Bl.] Whether Hermit has a hatred of America, and whether, if so, this
hatred is pathological or not, I cannot say. What I can say is that it
is equally possible, based on the evidence before us, that he is a
fervent patriot. It depends on your point of view.
When the British invaded China in the 18th Century they found maps in
which China occupied the almost whole of the document; peeping in at the
corners of these maps were tiny representations of what were
characterized as 'Barbarian' nations - Britain, France and the USA. It
was clear that the Chinese world view allocated no importance to
anything other than China.
Ironically, if one reads the Hermits list of broken American promises
and treaties, it is difficult to conclude that the American world-view
is any less solipsistic than the Chinese maps of yore.
It is almost risible that such a self-avowedly 'democratic' nation
should hold the community of nations in such manifest contempt. Almost.
Best Regards
Blunderov
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JD
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RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #6 on: 2003-09-15 05:02:23 » |
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You say the USA holds the community of nations in manifest contempt, yet I
see no such contempt. I see the USA, despite its overwhelming power,
choosing diplomacy and consensus. The USA has withdrawn from some treaties,
but it was perfectly fair for them to do so. If an agreement disadvantages
you, you are entitled to void the agreement and renegotiate.
Regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Blunderov
Sent: 15 September 2003 08:45
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
Jonathan Davis
> Sent: 14 September 2003 1840
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
>
> I was spooked by Hermit's Chinese-commit-genocide piece but for me it
was
> ruined by its overt anti-Americanism (if that term can be applied to
what
> appears *in my opinion* to be Hermit's pathological hatred of
America).
[Bl.] Whether Hermit has a hatred of America, and whether, if so, this
hatred is pathological or not, I cannot say. What I can say is that it is
equally possible, based on the evidence before us, that he is a fervent
patriot. It depends on your point of view.
When the British invaded China in the 18th Century they found maps in which
China occupied the almost whole of the document; peeping in at the corners
of these maps were tiny representations of what were characterized as
'Barbarian' nations - Britain, France and the USA. It was clear that the
Chinese world view allocated no importance to anything other than China.
Ironically, if one reads the Hermits list of broken American promises and
treaties, it is difficult to conclude that the American world-view is any
less solipsistic than the Chinese maps of yore.
It is almost risible that such a self-avowedly 'democratic' nation should
hold the community of nations in such manifest contempt. Almost.
Best Regards
Blunderov
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JD
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RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #7 on: 2003-09-15 05:03:49 » |
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Firstly, I regret sending the earlier e-mail whilst it was incomplete. I
meant to say thank you and well done to all the team who brought out The
Ideohazard. Well done folks, an excellent read, all of it.
Now on to my comments about Hermit's future history piece and the
response...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 14 September 2003 19:21
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
[Hermit 1] Unfortunately for the validity of Jonathan Davis' attempted
criticisms, the premis were accurate and recognizable. That's what made the
article's Chinese response seem "reasonable", the piece spooky, and the
consequences, "plausible".
[Jonathan 2] The piece was very interesting. Some of it is very plausible.
Unfortunately, in with the good stuff is partisan, anti-American blight.
[Hermit 1] Some International treaties that the Bush administration has
withdrawn from, violated or abandonded:
[Jonathan 2] Yes, the USA, like others has withdrawn from treaties. A treaty
is simply an agreement. There is nothing wrong with ending a treaty.
SNIP
[Hermit 1] I could continue, but then, so could anyone who cared to
investigate for themselves.
[Hermit 1] Jonathan Davis should read the National Security Strategy
(www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf). This document purports to address the "new
realities" of our age, particularly the "proliferation of weapons of mass
destruction" and "terrorist networks armed with the agendas of fanatics".
The NSS claims that these new threats are so novel and so dangerous that we
should "not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of
self-defense by acting preemptively." This document makes it clear that a
threat need not necessarily be military, to draw an attack by the US, but
instead blatantly states that the US reserves the right to preemptively or
preventively attack any nation which threatens "the preeminence" of the US.
This statement, according to military analysts, including Janes and the FAS
is largely responsible for the current buildup of Chinese military
expenditure.
[Jonathan 2] I completely agree with the USA's right of self-defence by
acting pre-emptively. I think it is bunk to suggest the Chinese military
build-up, which has been going on for 40 years, is caused by an US document.
[Hermit 1] The US has previously acted against its citizens of Eastern
origin, most notoriously during WW II, but the degree of repression levied
against Orientals has been second only to that deployed against native
Indians.
[Jonathan 2] Japanese citizens were interned, not massacred. We are talking
about Americans here, not the Japanese. We do not know what would have
happened had there been an American minority in Japan, we do however know
what the Japanese did to 'enemy' non-combatants in Burma ("Get your marching
boots on girls") and need I remind you of Nanking and Manila?
[Hermit 1] The trouble with owning weapon systems, no matter how
terrifying, is that there is always a temptation to justify their use. For
example, the US planned to respond to a potential USSR invasion of Europe in
1998 by turning Western Europe into a nuclear, biological and chemical
holocaust (public disclosure of stolen NATO documents by numerous news
outlets in 1969).
[Jonathan 2] This is yet more bunk. The plan was to confine the fighting to
a "zone" in Eastern West Germany where tactical nuclear weapons could be
used to neutralize Warsaw Pact numerical superiority.
[Hermit 1] As another example, it is well known that the US has draconian
plans to counter internal civil unnrest or the consequences of biocides
whether due to biological warfare or other causes. Less well known outside
defense circles, is that exercises modelling such responses usually include
nuclear options.
[Jonathan 2] Britain has plans contain biowar victims too. That the US
scenario builders have modelled a scenario where a nuclear weapon is used to
destroy an infection site does not mean the US government are actively
planning to nuclear bomb its own people.
[Hermit 1] I note that the Chinese prediliction to self-destruct was raised
by me in private discussion with Jonathan Davis and is a separate issue and
not germane to those explored in this "future history."
[Jonathan 2] My comments were an incidental afterthought and not presented
in the context of your "future history".
[Hermit 1] As a final rejoinder, Jonathan Davis' ability to detect
"unconcealed approval" of genocide (irrespective of source or target) or
"overt anti-Americanism" and "pathological hatred of America" speaks poorly
of his ability to differenciate between fiction and reality.
[Jonathan 2] I noted that you wrote with "unconcealed approval of a
situation". This was simply my impression. The voice of your piece was all
of the above, whether that was you or a fictional Chinese future historian,
I don't know.
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Kharin
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Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #8 on: 2003-09-15 05:23:50 » |
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Quote:"I was spooked by Hermit's Chinese-commit-genocide piece but for me it was ruined by its overt anti-Americanism (if that term can be applied to what
appears *in my opinion* to be Hermit's pathological hatred of America)." |
As I've said before I am not particularly enthused by the term 'anti-americanism.' Most nations are not in the habit of expecting to be unconditionally loved and one would not expect to hear terms like anti-british (especially at the height of its Empire when such concerns were blithely irrelevant) or anti-european. In fact, the only parallel that springs to mind is being 'un-amercian.'
That said, the piece is an attempt to extrapolate trends from current events. Given that the axis of evil speech threatened both Iran and North Korea while ensuring that the US would be bogged down with Iraq for several years, some of those consequences are already evident; since both countries have responded by accelerating weapons programmes. It would be rather surprising if China did not view such events, note that it is the only state likely to be in a position to challenge the US in the future and prepare accordingly. Even though this is a creative work, I would be very surprised if no-one in the Pentagon was performing similar scenario planning regarding China. If they are not, I would be very worried indeed.
Quote:"Incidentally: If history is to be a guide, then be assured China will amount
to zero in terms of global power. It will invert itself as it has done so
many times in its 6,000 year history. China has some advantages over the
West, advantages easily wiped out by us: It is ruthless and devious, it is
not a democracy, it is protectionist, it prostitutes promise of its markets
to steal technology and advantage, its workers are prepared to work for very
little. " |
An interesting question. China's economic performance has certainly been far more remarkable than you suggest. To quote the CIA World Factbook:
Quote:| "The result has been a quadrupling of GDP since 1978. In 2002, with its 1.3 billion people but a GDP of just $4,400 per capita, China stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US (measured on a purchasing power parity basis)." |
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html
Within that context, the structure of the Chinese economy has changed rapidly since between 1991 and 1997 the size of the Chinese private sector grew by 71%. The growth rates of some Chinese areas, the Yangtse delta in particular, have been phenomenal. Of course, as you suggest there are factors that may retard this; for example, most of this growth is accounted for in terms of inward investment, while India may yet prove more attractive.
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Hermit
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Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #9 on: 2003-09-15 07:22:17 » |
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[Jonathan 2] This is yet more bunk
[Hermit 3] The reason I don't need to bother responding to anything further said by Jonathan Davis is that he didn't bother to indicating what the original bunk was. Despite this, I will address a few areas of difference.
[Hermit 3] Note that the areas <snipped> are what makes the US under the current Administration a "rogue nation" both in terms of International law (under which the US has not only accused but even tried others) and in terms of having voided the legitimacy of American law in that the "Supremacy Clause" states unequivocably that, the "Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all treaties made or shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the Supreme Law of the Land." (Article VI of The United States Constitution).
[Hermit 3] Does Jonathan Davis know that while the US authorized naturalization for "free white persons" who had resided in the United States for at least two years and swore loyalty to the U.S. Constitution in 1790, this did not apply to Asians or blacks. A few Asian groups were permitted access to naturalization in the 1940s, but most had to wait for 1952 when these outdated rules were finally lifted. Does Jonathan Davis know that the US killed a million Filipinos in the 1899-1902 war of occupation? Jonathan Davis doesn't seem to know that the Filipinos, like the Chinese (previously attacked to force them to keep their markets open for opium sales by British and American drug dealers) were shipped in vast numbers as cheap labor to the US. Jonathan Davis probably has never even heard of the strict anti-oriental non-assimilation policies in place in the US through into the 1950s. “Go to the other side of town!”, “No orientals allowed”, “It is illegal for Filipinos to marry white women!” “Just go back to your own country, you’re not wanted here!” Has Jonathan Davis never heard of the race riots and lynchings of Stockton, Exeter, Watsonville and other cities in California - in the late 1930s? Have some history - http://web.mit.edu/21h.153j/www/chrono.html Jonathan Davis.
[Hermit 3] Pointing out the deficiencies of an administration and its export of death and terror does not mean that the person doing so is "anti" that country, although given the inculcated climate of conformity in the US, I readily concede that such criticism voiced towards the Bush Administration has frequently been termed "un American" by the neo-cons and their raggle-taggle bands of hanger-ons. Even so, significant numbers of Americans have now reached the point where such criticism is being voiced. And in my opinion, a good thing too. Try here for a taste of what happens when this is suppressed - http://pages.britishlibrary.net/blwww3/3way/chomstateoppression.htm.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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JD
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RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #10 on: 2003-09-15 07:52:02 » |
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Kharin
Sent: 15 September 2003 10:24
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
[Jonathan 1] "I was spooked by Hermit's Chinese-commit-genocide piece but
for me it was ruined by its overt anti-Americanism (if that term can be
applied to what appears *in my opinion* to be Hermit's pathological hatred
of America)."
[Kharin 1] As I've said before I am not particularly enthused by the term
'anti-americanism.' Most nations are not in the habit of expecting to be
unconditionally loved and one would not expect to hear terms like
anti-british (especially at the height of its Empire when such concerns were
blithely irrelevant) or anti-european. In fact, the only parallel that
springs to mind is being 'un-amercian.'
[Jonathan 2] Whilst most nations would not expect to be unconditionally
loved, neither would they expect to be reflexively hated. Anti-Americanism
is simply an abstraction of being anti-American . It means what it says.
[Kharin 1] That said, the piece is an attempt to extrapolate trends from
current events. Given that the axis of evil speech threatened both Iran and
North Korea while ensuring that the US would be bogged down with Iraq for
several years, some of those consequences are already evident; since both
countries have responded by accelerating weapons programmes. It would be
rather surprising if China did not view such events, note that it is the
only state likely to be in a position to challenge the US in the future and
prepare accordingly. Even though this is a creative work, I would be very
surprised if no-one in the Pentagon was performing similar scenario planning
regarding China. If they are not, I would be very worried indeed.
[Jonathan 2] The piece is future history and therefore unfettered by
reality. The truth is that it is near certain that the Pentagon has prepared
scenarios to deal with an aggressive China. Why? Because it is already a
reality. Sabre rattling over Taiwan, brinkmanship over the Spratleys,
rampant techno-theft, massive internal repression, clearly stated objectives
for world domination and hegemony (the Chinese want to be where the USA is
today. If they ever get there those breathless from screaming at the
putative US outrages better prepares for a whole new scale of reference when
it comes to Chinese brutality and violation of international norms. Simply
think about China's complicity in intellectual property violations as one
example. For more information see: "The China Threat" by Bill Gertz and
Howard Bloom's essay on China in "Everything You Know Is Wrong".)
[Jonathan 1] "Incidentally: If history is to be a guide, then be assured
China will amount to zero in terms of global power. It will invert itself as
it has done so many times in its 6,000 year history. China has some
advantages over the West, advantages easily wiped out by us: It is ruthless
and devious, it is not a democracy, it is protectionist, it prostitutes
promise of its markets to steal technology and advantage, its workers are
prepared to work for very little. "
[Kharin 1] An interesting question. China's economic performance has
certainly been far more remarkable than you suggest. To quote the CIA World
Factbook:
"The result has been a quadrupling of GDP since 1978. In 2002, with its 1.3
billion people but a GDP of just $4,400 per capita, China stood as the
second-largest economy in the world after the US (measured on a purchasing
power parity basis)."
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html
[Jonathan 2] I am fully aware of China's economic miracle. The problem (for
China) is that the forces which sustain it are waning. Inward investment,
techno-theft and protectionism are all losing their lustre. If China is ever
seen a threat, the party is over.
[Kharin 1] Within that context, the structure of the Chinese economy has
changed rapidly since between 1991 and 1997 the size of the Chinese private
sector grew by 71%. The growth rates of some Chinese areas, the Yangtse
delta in particular, have been phenomenal. Of course, as you suggest there
are factors that may retard this; for example, most of this growth is
accounted for in terms of inward investment, while India may yet prove more
attractive.
[Jonathan 2] Indeed.
Kind regards
Jonathan
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Kharin
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Posts: 407
Reputation: 8.42
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In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
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Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #11 on: 2003-09-15 08:00:16 » |
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Quote:"Yes, the USA, like others has withdrawn from treaties. A treaty
is simply an agreement. There is nothing wrong with ending a treaty. " |
Hmm. In my view, the most singularly depressing aspect of recent developments has been the US rejection of international agreements (in particular those relating to the containment of what some have termed 'weapons of mass destruction') which sought certain goals the US had declared itself in favour of. As an example, consider the criticisms made by the US of the UN charter, wherein the guarantees of sovereignty as being inviolable were viewed as a means of endorsing the most despotic regimes provided that any atrocities committed were done within the confines of their own borders (e.g. if Hitler has not invaded another state but simply exterminated all the Jews within Germany). Such criticisms have some obviour merit, but one of the developments that would have moved the UN away from this stance was the International Criminal Court, which the US has not only abstained from but actively sought to undermine. In such matters, the UN itself appears to be viewed as a threat to US hegemony.
Of course, others are capable of behaving in the same manner and the EU's actions at Cancun were nothing short of disgraceful.
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JD
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RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #12 on: 2003-09-15 08:08:19 » |
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 15 September 2003 12:22
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
[Jonathan 2] This is yet more bunk
[Hermit 3] The reason I don't need to bother responding to anything further
said by Jonathan Davis is that he didn't bother to indicating what the
original bunk was. Despite this, I will address a few areas of difference.
[Jonathan 3] I failed to identify non-bunk, hence the omission.
[Hermit 3] Note that the areas <snipped> are what makes the US under the
current Administration a "rogue nation" both in terms of International law
(under which the US has not only accused but even tried others) and in terms
of having voided the legitimacy of American law in that the "Supremacy
Clause" states unequivocably that, the "Constitution, and the Laws of the
United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all treaties
made or shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be
the Supreme Law of the Land." (Article VI of The United States
Constitution).
[Jonathan 3] Relevance score: 0. Next!
[Hermit 3] Does Jonathan Davis know that while the US authorized
naturalization for "free white persons" who had resided in the United States
for at least two years and swore loyalty to the U.S. Constitution in 1790,
this did not apply to Asians or blacks.
[Jonathan 3] Relevance score: 0. Next!
[Hermit 3] A few Asian groups were permitted access to naturalization in the
1940s, but most had to wait for 1952 when these outdated rules were finally
lifted.
[Jonathan 3] You are introducing a problem rectified over 50 years ago as
somehow relevant to our discussion. Odd bordering on bizarre.
[Hermit 3] Does Jonathan Davis know that the US killed a million Filipinos
in the 1899-1902 war of occupation? That he doesn't know that they, like the
Chinese (previously attacked to force them to keep their markets open for
opium sales by British and American drug dealers) were shipped in vast
numbers as cheap labor to the US.
[Jonathan 3] I know of pogroms, mass murders, forced starvation and
brutality meted out by those with power against those without throughout
recorded history and almost certainly before. So what? Stick to the point.
[Hermit 3] He Jonathan Davis never heard of the strict anti-oriental
non-assimilation policies in place in the US through into the 1950s? "Go to
the other side of town!", "No orientals allowed", "It is illegal for
Filipinos to marry white women!" "Just go back to your own country, you're
not wanted here!" Has Jonathan Davis never heard of the race riots and
lynchings of Stockton, Exeter, Watsonville and other cities in California -
in the late 1930s. Have some history -
http://web.mit.edu/21h.153j/www/chrono.html.
[Jonathan 3] I know well what happened in a former era, where attitudes and
norms were different. I wonder if Hermit thinks the actions and brutalities
carried out by his (and mine) own Ethno-national group as recently as the
early 90's reflect something about he and I?
[Hermit 3] Pointing out the deficiencies of an administration and its export
of death and terror does not mean that the person doing so is "anti" that
country, although given the inculcated climate of conformity in the US, I
readily concede that such criticism voiced towards the Bush Administratin
has frequently been termed "un American" by the neo-cons and their
raggle-taggle bands of hanger-ons. Even so, significant numbers of Americans
have now reached the point where such criticism is being voiced. And in my
opinion, a good thing too. Try here for a taste of what happens when this is
suppressed -
http://pages.britishlibrary.net/blwww3/3way/chomstateoppression.htm.
[Jonathan 3]
"All seems infected that the infected spy,
As all seems yellow to the jaundiced eye."
Pope: Essay on Criticism.
Regards
Jonathan
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Kharin
Archon
Posts: 407
Reputation: 8.42
Rate Kharin
In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
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Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #13 on: 2003-09-15 08:24:00 » |
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Quote:| "Whilst most nations would not expect to be unconditionally loved, neither would they expect to be reflexively hated. " |
Then they must be singularly naive. On the whole, I am inclined to agree with Niall Ferguson that the US has effectively become an imperial power but is reluctant to accept the full philosophical implications of that, one of which happens to be that imperial powers are not generally well liked. That is an occupational hazard and one I doubt that too many previous Empires concerned themselves with.
Quote:| "Anti-Americanism is simply an abstraction of being anti-American . It means what it says. " |
Well, what does it mean or say? Since I have heard the term reflexively used to cover anything from European dislike of American popular culture to Asian dislike of American business practises one is left suspecting the term to be devoid of content.
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JD
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 542
Reputation: 7.39
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RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
« Reply #14 on: 2003-09-15 09:23:59 » |
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To understand why these agreements are being undermined, I recommend "The
West and the Rest" by Roger Scruton.
Regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Kharin
Sent: 15 September 2003 13:00
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
"Yes, the USA, like others has withdrawn from treaties. A treaty is simply
an agreement. There is nothing wrong with ending a treaty. "
Hmm. In my view, the most singularly depressing aspect of recent
developments has been the US rejection of international agreements (in
particular those relating to the containment of what some have termed
'weapons of mass destruction') which sought certain goals the US had
declared itself in favour of. As an example, consider the criticisms made by
the US of the UN charter, wherein the guarantees of sovereignty as being
inviolable were viewed as a means of endorsing the most despotic regimes
provided that any atrocities committed were done within the confines of
their own borders (e.g. if Hitler has not invaded another state but simply
exterminated all the Jews within Germany). Such criticisms have some obviour
merit, but one of the developments that would have moved the UN away from
this stance was the International Criminal Court, which the US has not only
abstained from but actively sought to undermine. In such matters, the UN
itself appears to be viewed as a threat to US hegemony.
Of course, others are capable of behaving in the same manner and the EU's
actions at Cancun were nothing short of disgraceful.
----
This message was posted by Kharin to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus
BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=292
59>
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