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rhinoceros
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virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« on: 2003-04-10 17:14:08 »
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Human cloning 'flawed'
Human cloning may never be possible because of a quirk of biology.
BBC, Thursday, 10 April, 2003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2936401.stm


Human cloning currently 'almost impossible'
New Scientist, April 10, 2003
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993614




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Re: virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #1 on: 2003-04-10 17:54:09 »
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The "digital" nano-wankers will figure it out.

Yeah, right. 4 billion years of planetary evolution and evolutionary biology count
for nothing when you've got 1's and 0's.

Jeeeeezzzzzuuuuusssssss!!!



Nano-nut wanking material:

http://www.walterwatts.com/images/nanomotor2.jpg



Walter


rhinoceros wrote:

> Human cloning 'flawed'
> Human cloning may never be possible because of a quirk of biology.
> BBC, Thursday, 10 April, 2003
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2936401.stm
>
> Human cloning currently 'almost impossible'
> New Scientist, April 10, 2003
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993614
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>

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Re:virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #2 on: 2003-04-10 22:18:47 »
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The Laws of Impossibility

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." - Clarke's First Law

"The limits of the possible can only be defined by going beyond them into the impossible." - Clarke's Second Law



Proclaiming the Impossible

“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.” – Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

“This ‘telephone’ has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.” – Western Union, internal memo, 1876

“The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a ‘C’, the idea must be feasible.” – A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith’s paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. Smith went on to found FedEx.

“Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?” – Harry Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927

“I’m just glad it will be Clark Gable falling on his face and not Gary Cooper” – Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in “Gone With the Wind”

“We don’t like their sound, and guitar music is on its way out.” – Decca Recording Company, rejecting The Beatles, 1962

“Heavier than air flying machines are impossible.” – Lord Kelvin, President, Royal Society, 1895

“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.” – Ken Olson, President, Chairman and Founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977

“If I had thought about it, I wouldn’t have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can’t do this.” – Spencer Silver, on the work that led to the unique adhesives on 3–M Post–It notepads

“The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?” – David Sarnoff’s associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920’s

“Everything that can be invented has been invented.” – Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Patent Office, 1899

“So we went to Atari and said, “Hey we’ve got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, what do you think about funding us? Or we’ll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we’ll come work for you.” And they said, “No”. So then we went to Hewlett Packard and they said, “Hey, we don’t need you; you haven’t even got through college yet.” – Apple Computer Co–Founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and HP interested in he and Steve Wozniak’s personal computer.

“Louis Pasteur’s theory of germs is ridiculous fiction.” – Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

“You want to have consistent an uniform muscle development across all of your muscles? It can’t be done. It’s just a fact of life. You have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight training.” – Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the “unsolvable” problem by inventing Nautilus.

“Airplanes are interesting toys, but are of no military value.” – Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre

“Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try to find oil? You’re crazy.” – Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859

“640k ought to be enough for anybody.” – Bill Gates, Co–Founder and CEO of Microsoft, 1981


From Whence: The Nature of the Impossible

"Etiquette demands that those proclaiming a task impossible should stay out of the way of those accomplishing it." - Hermit

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?" - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The Sign of Four

"All things are possible until they are proved impossible. And even the impossible may only be so, as of now." - Pearl S. Buck

"Man can believe the impossible, but can never believe the improbable." Oscar Wilde

"To the timid soul, nothing is possible." - John Bach

"If someone says can't, that shows you what to do." -John Cage

"It is not a lucky word, this name "impossible"; no good comes of those who have it so often in their mouths." - Thomas Carlyle

"Impossibilities are merely things which we have not yet learned." - Charles W. Chesnutt

"Attempt the impossible in order to improve your work." - Bette Davis

"It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow." - Robert H. Goddard

"The impossible is often the untried." - Jim Goodwin

"All parents believe their children can do the impossible. They thought it the minute we were born, and no matter how hard we've tried to prove them wrong, they all think it about us now. And the really annoying thing is, they're probably right." - Cathy Guisewite

"All limits are self imposed." - Icarus

"When anyone tells me I can't do anything. I'm just not listening any more." - Florence Griffith Joyner

"Scientists have proven that it's impossible to long-jump 30 feet, but I don't listen to that kind of talk. Thoughts like that have a way of sinking into your feet." - Carl Lewis

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade." - Constance Baker Motley

"Today's accomplishments were yesterday's impossibilities." - Robert H. Schuller

"Apparently there is nothing that cannot happen today." - Mark Twain

Contrapoint

"A likely impossibility is always preferable to an unconvincing possibility." - Aristotle

"Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself." Weiler
« Last Edit: 2003-04-11 21:33:32 by Hermit » Report to moderator   Logged

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #3 on: 2003-04-10 22:43:04 »
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* Hermit thought there was something fishy going on here...

http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/01/13/monkey.cloning/ Search term http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=Tetra+Rhesus+Macaque

and

http://www.ohsu.edu/news/011001monkey.shtml Search term http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=ANDi+Oregon+Regional+Primate+Center

Both of these clones were produced at the Oregon National Primate Research Center
« Last Edit: 2003-04-11 19:39:06 by Hermit » Report to moderator   Logged

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
JD
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RE: virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #4 on: 2003-04-11 07:26:55 »
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I would like to submit this consideration as a "Best of virus" entry along
with Hermits recent Creation myth demolition. Anyone seconding?

Regards

Jonathan


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 11 April 2003 03:19
To: virus@lucifer.com


"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." - Thomas Watson,
chairman of IBM, 1943

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -
Western Union, internal memo, 1876

"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better
than a 'C', the idea must be feasible." - A Yale University management
professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight
delivery service. Smith went on to found FedEx.

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" - Harry Warner, Warner Brothers,
1927

"I'm just glad it will be Clark Gable falling on his face and not Gary
Cooper" - Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone
With the Wind"

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on its way out." - Decca
Recording Company, rejecting The Beatles, 1962

"Heavier than air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, President,
Royal Society, 1895

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken
Olson, President, Chairman and Founder of Digital Equipment Corporation,
1977

"If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The
literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." - Spencer
Silver, on the work that led to the unique adhesives on 3-M Post-It notepads


"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay
for a message sent to nobody in particular?" - David Sarnoff's associates in
response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920's

"Everything that can be invented has been invented." - Charles H. Duell,
Commissioner, U.S. Patent Office, 1899

"So we went to Atari and said, "Hey we've got this amazing thing, even built
with some of your parts, what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give
it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you."
And they said, "No". So then we went to Hewlett Packard and they said, "Hey,
we don't need you; you haven't even got through college yet." - Apple
Computer Co-Founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and HP interested in
he and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.

"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." - Pierre Pachet,
Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

"You want to have consistent an uniform muscle development across all of
your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You have to accept
inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight
training." - Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem
by inventing Nautilus.

"Airplanes are interesting toys, but are of no military value." - Marechal
Ferdinand Foch, Professor of strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre

"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try to find oil? You're
crazy." - Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to
drill for oil in 1859

"640k ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, Co-Founder and CEO of
Microsoft, 1981

----
This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus
BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=282
36>
---
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<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>

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Walter Watts
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Re: virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #5 on: 2003-04-11 08:14:26 »
Reply with quote

I'll second it.

Walter

Jonathan Davis wrote:

> I would like to submit this consideration as a "Best of virus" entry along
> with Hermits recent Creation myth demolition. Anyone seconding?
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
> Hermit
> Sent: 11 April 2003 03:19
> To: virus@lucifer.com
>
> "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." - Thomas Watson,
> chairman of IBM, 1943
>
> "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
> means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -
> Western Union, internal memo, 1876
>
> "The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better
> than a 'C', the idea must be feasible." - A Yale University management
> professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight
> delivery service. Smith went on to found FedEx.
>
> "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" - Harry Warner, Warner Brothers,
> 1927
>
> "I'm just glad it will be Clark Gable falling on his face and not Gary
> Cooper" - Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone
> With the Wind"
>
> "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on its way out." - Decca
> Recording Company, rejecting The Beatles, 1962
>
> "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, President,
> Royal Society, 1895
>
> "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken
> Olson, President, Chairman and Founder of Digital Equipment Corporation,
> 1977
>
> "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The
> literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." - Spencer
> Silver, on the work that led to the unique adhesives on 3-M Post-It notepads
>
> "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay
> for a message sent to nobody in particular?" - David Sarnoff's associates in
> response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920's
>
> "Everything that can be invented has been invented." - Charles H. Duell,
> Commissioner, U.S. Patent Office, 1899
>
> "So we went to Atari and said, "Hey we've got this amazing thing, even built
> with some of your parts, what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give
> it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you."
> And they said, "No". So then we went to Hewlett Packard and they said, "Hey,
> we don't need you; you haven't even got through college yet." - Apple
> Computer Co-Founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and HP interested in
> he and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.
>
> "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." - Pierre Pachet,
> Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872
>
> "You want to have consistent an uniform muscle development across all of
> your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You have to accept
> inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight
> training." - Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem
> by inventing Nautilus.
>
> "Airplanes are interesting toys, but are of no military value." - Marechal
> Ferdinand Foch, Professor of strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre
>
> "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try to find oil? You're
> crazy." - Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to
> drill for oil in 1859
>
> "640k ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, Co-Founder and CEO of
> Microsoft, 1981
>
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus
> BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=282
> 36>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>

--

Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.

"No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!"


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Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.


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RE: virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #6 on: 2003-04-11 08:37:55 »
Reply with quote

I submit this for inclusion in best of virus along with Hermits recent
anti-creation myth demolition. Anyone seconding?

JD


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 11 April 2003 03:19
To: virus@lucifer.com


"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." - Thomas Watson,
chairman of IBM, 1943

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -
Western Union, internal memo, 1876

"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better
than a 'C', the idea must be feasible." - A Yale University management
professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight
delivery service. Smith went on to found FedEx.

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" - Harry Warner, Warner Brothers,
1927

"I'm just glad it will be Clark Gable falling on his face and not Gary
Cooper" - Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone
With the Wind"

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on its way out." - Decca
Recording Company, rejecting The Beatles, 1962

"Heavier than air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, President,
Royal Society, 1895

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken
Olson, President, Chairman and Founder of Digital Equipment Corporation,
1977

"If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The
literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." - Spencer
Silver, on the work that led to the unique adhesives on 3-M Post-It notepads


"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay
for a message sent to nobody in particular?" - David Sarnoff's associates in
response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920's

"Everything that can be invented has been invented." - Charles H. Duell,
Commissioner, U.S. Patent Office, 1899

"So we went to Atari and said, "Hey we've got this amazing thing, even built
with some of your parts, what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give
it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you."
And they said, "No". So then we went to Hewlett Packard and they said, "Hey,
we don't need you; you haven't even got through college yet." - Apple
Computer Co-Founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and HP interested in
he and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.

"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." - Pierre Pachet,
Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

"You want to have consistent an uniform muscle development across all of
your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You have to accept
inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight
training." - Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem
by inventing Nautilus.

"Airplanes are interesting toys, but are of no military value." - Marechal
Ferdinand Foch, Professor of strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre

"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try to find oil? You're
crazy." - Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to
drill for oil in 1859

"640k ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, Co-Founder and CEO of
Microsoft, 1981

----
This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus
BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=282
36>
---
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rhinoceros
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virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #7 on: 2003-04-12 16:12:17 »
Reply with quote

[rhinoceros]
Scientific American also reported on the current impossibility of cloning
humans and monkeys using nuclear transfer, that is, taking genetic material
from a cell and inserting it into an unfertilized egg. So, the recent
announcements of cloned babies seem to be scams.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=00015573-DBA6-1
E95-8EA5809EC5880000


Human cloning could face obstacles greater than governmental regulations.
According to a report published online today by the journal Science,
reproductive cloning in rhesus monkeys is hindered by the absence of key
proteins that control cell division and the splitting of chromosomes. The
findings indicate that reproductive cloning of primates, including humans,
is unachievable using current techniques.

<snip>


[rhinoceros]
Hermit's post reminded me of Tetra and Andi, the rhesus monkeys. Who knows
how they are doing these days... Interesting results, although not what they
currently call reproductive cloning. The good old sperm injection into an
egg was used, and the embryo was hosted in a surrogate mother.


The story of Tetra: Embryo splitting (Jan 2000)

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,33640,00.html

"Tetra," a bright-eyed rhesus macaque, was not made by the same method that
made the world agog over Dolly the sheep.

While Dolly was cloned using nuclear transfer -- taking the nucleus out of
an adult cell and using it to reprogram an unfertilized egg -- Tetra was
made by splitting a very early embryo into four pieces.

"The birth of Tetra, a healthy female cloned from a quarter of an embryo,
proves that this approach can result in live offspring," the researchers at
the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center in Beaverton wrote in the
journal Science

<snip>

See also:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/602027.stm


The story of Andi, the first genetically modified primate (Jan 2001)

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F386E-F471-1C59-B882809EC
588ED9F


Researchers have succeeded in producing the first genetically modified
primate, according to a report published today in the journal Science. The
baby rhesus monkey, dubbed ANDi (backwards for inserted DNA), was born in
early October and carries an extra gene that was slipped into his mother's
egg prior to fertilization. Such engineering may ultimately point the way to
improved gene therapy treatments for human diseases.

Producing ANDi was no small feat. Gerald Schatten of the Oregon Health
Sciences University and his colleagues modified some 224 eggs, but only
ended up with three healthy babies. And successful integration of the extra
DNA occurred only in ANDi. Although researchers hope to eventually use such
techniques to produce the non-human primate equivalent of transgenic mice,
which have proved so useful in disease studies, the extra DNA ANDi received
does not cause disease. Rather it is a marker gene. Taken from a jellyfish,
the so-called GFP gene should produce a fluorescent protein when activated,
making it easy to detect. So far none of the cells sampled have revealed the
telltale glow. But expression may not occur until he is older. In the
meantime, ANDi remains healthy and "plays normally with his two roommates,"
according to Schatten.
"Monkeys like ANDi and Tetra, a cloned monkey, will quickly but safely help
us determine if innovative therapies are safe and effective," Schatten
remarks. "It may soon be possible to introduce markers monitored by
non-invasive techniques, such as MRI [magnetic resonance imaging] or PET
[positron emission tomography], to discover the developmental events that
lead to diseases like diabetes, heart disease and even mental
illnesses. --Kate Wong

See also:
http://www.ohsu.edu/news/011001monkey.shtml
http://www.ohsu.edu/news/011001monkeybkgd.shtml

« Last Edit: 2003-04-12 17:25:32 by rhinoceros » Report to moderator   Logged
David Lucifer
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Re: Re:virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #8 on: 2003-04-16 14:40:17 »
Reply with quote

>
> “640k ought to be enough for anybody.” – Bill Gates, Co–Founder and CEO of
Microsoft, 1981

Bill Gates never said that. I suspect someone put those words in his mouth
because DOS had a 640K limit for directly addressable memory. It makes me
wonder how many other misquotes are in this list, would it be possible to
check references?

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Re: Re:virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #9 on: 2003-04-20 11:49:06 »
Reply with quote

>
> “Everything that can be invented has been invented.” – Charles H. Duell,
Commissioner, U.S. Patent Office, 1899

Debunked here>> http://www.ideafinder.com/resource/archives/wow-duell.htm

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Re: Re:virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #10 on: 2003-04-20 13:50:50 »
Reply with quote


Quote from: David Lucifer on 2003-04-16 14:40:17   

>
> “640k ought to be enough for anybody.” – Bill Gates, Co–Founder and CEO of
Microsoft, 1981

Bill Gates never said that. I suspect someone put those words in his mouth
because DOS had a 640K limit for directly addressable memory. It makes me
wonder how many other misquotes are in this list, would it be possible to
check references?

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I am not sure where he is reputed to have said this, but it seems that Bill Gates has spent a lot of time attempting to refute it and perhaps to attempt to enhance his "visionary capabilities" over what they were at the time through propounding a new myth, e.g. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15180#fn*. Not having a source, I am not sure his 640k comment was ever made or not, but he certainly said far worse things in those lean and hungry days.

The above referenced attempted refutation omits to mention that Billy G undoubtedly assured Bill Sydnes (the IBM Program Manager responsible for commercializing the design they "inherited" from "Lou" Eggebrecht (the real inventor - and an interesting story in its own right)) that MS DOS would run in 16kB and would "never need more than 64kB" of RAM to operate effectively. Which is why IBM released the original 16-64kB motherboard (with cassette port and 5 slots) rather than waiting for the seven slot 64-256kB version which followed almost immediately (Source, "Interfacing to the IBM PC", Lewis C. Eggebrecht). Apropos of something, I still have at least one of those 16-64kB motherboards floating around. In any case, until Tecmar (working with IBM) released a 256k Adapter, and AST (quasi-independently after reverse engineering the Tecmar board) the MegaPack (which preceded the famous "SixPack and which had 512kB Memory on a multi-board adapter), the only "officially blessed" memory adapter was a 16kB card (I have one of those too). So the physical top limit (if you had one screen adapter and no disk drives) would have been 128kB with all slots occupied.  But to do anything "useful", they generally needed a diskette adapter as well as a screen adapter (as the cassette routines were very unreliable), meaning that they could initially have only 100kB of RAM.

Interestingly,the article is wrong in some technical aspects too. You could in fact address 704kB in the original architecture without conflict (i.e. to the base of the Monochrome Adapter video memory at 0xB000- not "just" 640kB, although the original BIOS switches allowed the system to recognize only 544kB (Source Original IBM PC (not XT) Technical Reference (and I have one of those as well)).  As I have some motherboards and adapters I modified to perform either "bank-switching" or "top-filling" into this area, as well as allowing two monochrome adapters to be fitted (although this required a patched BIOS - difficult as the ROM chosen was not pin compatible with the then available EPROMs), I'm quite sure of this.

Later (1985/6 if I recall), M$ (if not Billy G himself) did something similar when they assured IBM that the 80286 based PC AT could be sold as a "departmental server", and that it would, under OS/2, provide multitasking support for up to 24 users connected on "dumb" terminals or using PCs in terminal emulation mode. Before moving to the US I still had a copy of the joint IBM/M$ press release announcing this. This was undoubtedly a major reason why IBM continued working on the OS/2 project, even after M$ themselves abandonded the project on the grounds that the 80286 was "brain-dead" (which it was) and that building 80286 support into the new OS would cripple it. M$ of course moved on to cooperate with Intel on developing the 80386, while working on their "new" complementary product, Windoze386 which later became Windoze 3.

I'd suggest that no matter how desperately Billy G would like to argue this away, and whether or not he would like to be seen to have recognised the need for scads of memory to run his brain-damaged software, - the above indicates that if he did not say "exactly" the attributed words, that he said things sufficiently like them - but worse - for it to be believable.

Kind Regards

Hermit

PS Not going to attempt a defence of the "Patent" story - but based on your research, I found this which seems to point to the source:

Source: http://www.questel.orbit.com/Piug/piugl99/0683.html
Authors: Nancy E. Adams
Dated: 1999-07-29

The answer was posted on Chemical Information Listserv (CHMINF) and was forwarded to me:

Here is Nancy Adams' response to Grace Baysinger's question:

Grace:

The book, "The Patent Office Pony: A History of the Early Patent Office", written by Kenneth W. Dobyns, contains information about this quote. It was attributed to the first Commissioner of Patents, Henry Ellsworth. The actual sentence that he wrote in the 1843 Annual Report of the Patent Office was, "The advancement of the arts, from year to
year, taxes our credulity, and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." This has evolved through the years to, "Everything that can be invented has been invented", although he never actually said that. Dobyns also states that Richard Nixon, in his 1988 book, "Victory without War", attributed the erroneous statement to Commissioner Charles H. Duell, who also never said it.

Sincerely,
Nancy Adams

Grace: In my last message I forgot to add that the actual text of the correct quote is found on page 5 of the 1843 "Annual Report of Commissioner of Patents". The report is House of Representatives Document No. 177, from the 28th Congress of the U.S., 1st Session.
--Nancy Adams

Nancy E. Adams, M.L.I.S.
Science and Engineering Center, Fogler Library
University of Maine
Orono, ME 04469
207-581-1678 FAX 207-581-1653 e-mail:
nancy.adams@umit.maine.edu
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Re: Re:virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #11 on: 2003-04-21 13:38:17 »
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Re: virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #12 on: 2003-05-05 00:26:10 »
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[Jake Sapiens] I seemed to have missed this piece of news.  Interestingly,
however, I think an unintended consequence of this development comes out as a
bonus incentive for researching cloning/genetic engineering of Space Monkeys
TM
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=27853
since the research path to human cloning may be through more intensive
research on monkey cloning.  Yes, this appears as a technical setback, but I
have little doubt that we shall overcome. 

Just off the top of my head . . .

I will have to read up on the news to get a better idea of the nature of the
technical problem.  If the problem can be solved simply with a sperm and an
egg, then I'm not sure this is as big a setback, though it can make the
process technically a little more complicated, but I imagine still
theoretically possible with the technology we have - just a matter of getting
half of the desired genome in enough sperm, and the other half in an egg or
eggs, and then perform good "old-fashioned" in vitro fertilization.

Well, that may not be the solution, but if it isn't it still might be
something reasonable to try in the process of finding the real solution. 
Amazing how little time it takes to get behind on a field as changing as
this.  I have some catch-up reading to do.  Perhaps it may simply be an issue
of loading up the egg cytoplasm with the right mRNA? Or something else?

Love,

-Jake

the following is a repost of Rhino's excellent summary and links on this
piece of scientific news.  Thanks Rhino! :-)

In a message dated 4/12/2003 3:20:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
rhinoceros@freemail.gr writes:

[rhinoceros]
Scientific American also reported on the current impossibility of cloning
humans and monkeys using nuclear transfer, that is, taking genetic material
from a cell and inserting it into an unfertilized egg. So, the recent
announcements of cloned babies seem to be scams.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=00015573-DBA6-1
E95-8EA5809EC5880000


Human cloning could face obstacles greater than governmental regulations.
According to a report published online today by the journal Science,
reproductive cloning in rhesus monkeys is hindered by the absence of key
proteins that control cell division and the splitting of chromosomes. The
findings indicate that reproductive cloning of primates, including humans,
is unachievable using current techniques.

<snip>


[rhinoceros]
Hermit's post reminded me of Tetra and Andi, the rhesus monkeys. Who knows
how they are doing these days... Interesting results, although not what we
call reproductive cloning these days. The good old sperm injection into an
egg was used, and the embryo was hosted in a surrogate mother.


The story of Tetra: Embryo splitting (Jan 2000)

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,33640,00.html

"Tetra," a bright-eyed rhesus macaque, was not made by the same method that
made the world agog over Dolly the sheep.

While Dolly was cloned using nuclear transfer -- taking the nucleus out of
an adult cell and using it to reprogram an unfertilized egg -- Tetra was
made by splitting a very early embryo into four pieces.

"The birth of Tetra, a healthy female cloned from a quarter of an embryo,
proves that this approach can result in live offspring," the researchers at
the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center in Beaverton wrote in the
journal Science

<snip>

See also:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/602027.stm


The story of Andi, the first genetically modified primate (Jan 2001)

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F386E-F471-1C59-B882809EC
588ED9F


Researchers have succeeded in producing the first genetically modified
primate, according to a report published today in the journal Science. The
baby rhesus monkey, dubbed ANDi (backwards for inserted DNA), was born in
early October and carries an extra gene that was slipped into his mother's
egg prior to fertilization. Such engineering may ultimately point the way to
improved gene therapy treatments for human diseases.

Producing ANDi was no small feat. Gerald Schatten of the Oregon Health
Sciences University and his colleagues modified some 224 eggs, but only
ended up with three healthy babies. And successful integration of the extra
DNA occurred only in ANDi. Although researchers hope to eventually use such
techniques to produce the non-human primate equivalent of transgenic mice,
which have proved so useful in disease studies, the extra DNA ANDi received
does not cause disease. Rather it is a marker gene. Taken from a jellyfish,
the so-called GFP gene should produce a fluorescent protein when activated,
making it easy to detect. So far none of the cells sampled have revealed the
telltale glow. But expression may not occur until he is older. In the
meantime, ANDi remains healthy and "plays normally with his two roommates,"
according to Schatten.
"Monkeys like ANDi and Tetra, a cloned monkey, will quickly but safely help
us determine if innovative therapies are safe and effective," Schatten
remarks. "It may soon be possible to introduce markers monitored by
non-invasive techniques, such as MRI [magnetic resonance imaging] or PET
[positron emission tomography], to discover the developmental events that
lead to diseases like diabetes, heart disease and even mental
illnesses. --Kate Wong

See also:
http://www.ohsu.edu/news/011001monkey.shtml
http://www.ohsu.edu/news/011001monkeybkgd.shtml






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My point is ...

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Re:virus: Human and monkey cloning currently impossible
« Reply #13 on: 2003-05-06 07:22:53 »
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[rhinoceros]
Thanks Jake. My posts and the links I choose often seem somehow anticlimactic and lacking enthusiasm, but this is because I think futurist enthusiasm must eventually lead to sound technological/social thinking. It is for the same reason that I have often been bickering with immortalist or singularitarians about the technicalities or the social forces which will unavoidably take over this kind of endeavours.

That said, futurist enthusiasm is essential for keeping us going and for creating the landscape in which the futurist engineers will find their social aknowledgement, approval, even their new frankensteinian fears.

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