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Joe Dees
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virus: Initiation
« on: 2003-03-27 15:31:54 »
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athenonrex
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Re: virus: Initiation
« Reply #1 on: 2003-03-29 16:23:58 »
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[athenonrex]
i would like to point out the three established stages of morality...

*preconventional moralism
*conventional moralism
*principalic moralism

this refers to a state of conventional moralism, where one if affected
by such factors as: peer pressure, codes of conduct, laws, comandments,
etc...

whereas this is "stage 2" in moral developement, "stage 1" is pre-
conventional (PC) and stage three is pricipalic.

PC moralism is based on force, coercement and reciprocation. such
behaviour is noted in children. you tell a child not to cross the street
but said child does so anyway, and you spank the child. the child is
less likely to repeat the action, because they are in a PC moralist mode.
and likewise with rewarding good behaviour.

as they progress in their moral development, however, they catch on...
and start trying to take advantage of the situation. they start
offering up ultimatums..."if you give me a candy bar, i won't cross the
street" for example...

in principalic moralism, stage three, people are doing things, not
because of the fear of repercussions, not because they recieve rewards,
not because of laws or codes, of because they think that everyone would
think this or that...etc...they base their actions, as the name
suggests, off of the principal correlating tot he situation and the circumstance.
if something is, by their standards, "right" they will do it merely because it is right...and vice versa...

however, the people in such organization as fraternities, etc...where
such "loyalty" has been noted to exist, operate under quite a "conventional" state of moralism...
the stage that most people start going through about the time they start
puberty...they are subject to base their actions on laws, on codes of behaviour,
on peer pressure, on the desire for acceptance, or the lack of desire
for rejection...

are we really an organization based off "conventional" morality? last
time i checked, we made fun of people that based their actions off such
factors...refering to them as sheep, etc...

or did i totally miss something joe?


[joedees]                   
>A lot of organizations put new members through some sort of
>initiation ceremony. Fraternities are typical; candidates are forced
>through some sort of ritual, and it's quite common for it to include
>at least one episode which is either uncomfortable or unpleasant
>or deeply embarrassing, or potentially so if you screw up while
>doing it.
>There have been studies about this kind of thing, and what was
>learned was that members of such groups tend to be more loyal
>and more dedicated when there is that kind of ritual than they will
>be without it, and are more likely to remain loyal for the rest of
>their lives. And if the group has some sort of agenda, they're more
>likely to adopt that agenda as their own, and to maintain and
>promote the group and help it to work to achieve its goal.
>Such things appear many places in human culture. It applies to
>various rites of passage, such as adulthood ceremonies (e.g. bar
>mitzvah, or adolescent circumcision ceremonies in many places
>around the world). Not only do such ceremonies represent a clean
>dividing line between "child" and "adult", but they also tend to
>make each kid bond to the group, and help in promoting group
>cohesiveness.

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Joe Dees
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Re: virus: Initiation
« Reply #2 on: 2003-03-29 16:31:58 »
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athenonrex
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Re: virus: Initiation
« Reply #3 on: 2003-04-02 13:33:41 »
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>> [joedees 1]                   
>> >A lot of organizations put new members through some sort of
>> >initiation ceremony. Fraternities are typical; candidates are forced
>> >through some sort of ritual, and it's quite common for it to include
>> >at least one episode which is either uncomfortable or unpleasant or
>> >deeply embarrassing, or potentially so if you screw up while doing
>> >it. There have been studies about this kind of thing, and what was
>> >learned was that members of such groups tend to be more loyal and
>> >more dedicated when there is that kind of ritual than they will be
>> >without it, and are more likely to remain loyal for the rest of their
>> >lives. And if the group has some sort of agenda, they're more likely
>> >to adopt that agenda as their own, and to maintain and promote the
>> >group and help it to work to achieve its goal. Such things appear
>> >many places in human culture. It applies to various rites of passage,
>> >such as adulthood ceremonies (e.g. bar mitzvah, or adolescent
>> >circumcision ceremonies in many places around the world). Not only do
>> >such ceremonies represent a clean dividing line between "child" and
>> >"adult", but they also tend to make each kid bond to the group, and
>> >help in promoting group cohesiveness.


>> [athenonrex 2]
>> i would like to point out the three established stages of morality...
>>
>> *preconventional moralism
>> *conventional moralism
>> *principalic moralism
>>
>>
>>
>>
[joedees 3]
>People on this list generally assume principled positions, which can
>vary widely, on the issues.  While this is true of us, it is not true of the
>organizations to which the article refers, where individuation is
>subsumed by group identity.

[athenonrex 4]
but you were implying, or at least it seemed that way, that we should
approach people for recruitment in this fashion...
not only do i think most people here are opposed to prostletizing (sp?),
but that implies we should be seeking out morally deficient/under-
developed individuals....

that's what i was addressing...and by the way, my thoughts were quite
correct...you responded in a rather conventional manner to my reply...


-warm regards,
athenonrex


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Joe Dees
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Re: virus: Initiation
« Reply #4 on: 2003-04-02 17:52:39 »
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