Author
|
Topic: Let's give War a chance! (Read 664 times) |
|
MoEnzyme
Acolyte
Gender: 
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 4.40
Rate MoEnzyme
infidel lab animal
 
|
 |
Let's give War a chance!
« on: 2003-02-11 13:35:32 » |
 |
I have noticed a number of friendly voices in cyberspace and IRL wishing to see me join an antiwar effort regarding the apparently imminent military campaign that my nation seems ready to launch. And so I feel the usefulness of posting my position here, which I only represent as my personal opinion, and not necessarily something I expect or predict polls to indicate (since some have grown to see them as some sort of acid test to legitimacy).
So with these disclaimers in mind . . . at the end of the day I support war on Saddam Hussein since that's apparently the menu now. In politics you have to concede on your opponent's good moves if you expect to come to grips with reality. The Bush administration has either by default or design picked a very good enemy. I continue to question the priority of this campaign in terms of any ongoing struggle against terrorism, but the recent American elections which very successfully managed to focus on the possible war have pretty much made my opinion on such priorities somewhat irrelevant, and that's an election, folks, not just a poll. As you might imagine nobody currently important in American politics really checks in with me about these things.
So that much said, I certainly welcome any criticism of the war that anyone wishes to bring, especially the more well thought out ones. Here's a few memes I might add to your basket. I think the greater American electorate has yet to face up to the fact that a lot of the reason our recovering cokehead president fails to get the international community behind him even when provided with sane reasons comes down to his unfortunate "crusade on terror" language he chose. No apology can save him from that, for the simple reason that instead of the "stupidity as usual" that some might claim it represents of GWB, I think it really represented a "true colors" moment for this administration, Bush, his friends and all. As long as he remains in office, I expect we will see more of this kind of reluctance amongst otherwise reasonable allies. This plays out very clearly in the French position, as they must answer to a much larger Muslim electorate than others. Of course the French diplomatic community won't bring up the incident again themselves because they know better and know that's at least unnecessary if not counterproductive, but I think that represents the hidden memetic hand at work in their foreign policy.
In addition, I might go on to say that the very early addiction to war metaphors in dealing with terrorists also adds to the problem. To have a "war on terror" gives too much credence to terrorist behavior in the first place. But unfortunately this is that path the administration took and is now thoroughly committed to. They could have kept this as an international law enforcement action, but since they won't even commit to the necessary treaties to make international criminal courts work in the first place, they have in effect burned their bridges before they even arrived at them.
For these reasons and more, I support any and all efforts of people of conscience to point them out whether American or not, and realize the fact that American foreign policy will never actually work until Americans choose another path. This administration has chosen theirs, and its the wrong one. Unless, of course, you simply hate peace and prosperity and wish to grant terrorists an eternal foothold in the American psyche.
In the mean time I guess I can look forward to catching reruns of this war in the arcades and computer games. Let's give war a chance! 
Love,
-Jake
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
|
|
|
rhinoceros
Archon
Gender:
Posts: 1318
Reputation: 8.34
Rate rhinoceros
My point is ...
|
|
Re:Let's give War a chance!
« Reply #1 on: 2003-02-11 14:42:32 » |
|
[Jake Sapiens]
So with these disclaimers in mind . . . at the end of the day I support war on Saddam Hussein since that's apparently the menu now.
[rhinoceros]
War on Saddam Husein? I thought it was going to be a raid on Iraq, complete with bombing Bagdhad, establishing military presence -- Saddam or no Saddam --- and taking up the economic decisions for the oil. Rather un-memetic.
[Jake Sapiens]
In politics you have to concede on your opponent's good moves if you expect to come to grips with reality. The Bush administration has either by default or design picked a very good enemy.
[rhinoceros]
You could say that... I guess North Korea would be a poorer choice. Not worth the cost, and you would have to take into account their nuclear program as well... So, what is the message of the new international order? Possibly "everyone get nuclear weapons in time to have your ass covered?".
[Jake Sapiens]
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/attachments/IraqExplained.gif
[rhinoceros]
I have noticed that people often find different things funny in a cartoon. I wonder what is funny in this one for someone who supports the war.
|
|
|
|
|
ElvenSage
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 288
Reputation: 7.52
Rate ElvenSage
Think for yourself, question authority.
|
|
Re:Let's give War a chance!
« Reply #2 on: 2003-02-12 00:19:28 » |
|
Jake mind if I copy and paste this post of yours on my forum? We're currently discussing this now.
|
Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
|
|
|
MoEnzyme
Acolyte
Gender:
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 4.40
Rate MoEnzyme
infidel lab animal
|
|
Re: virus: Re:Let's give War a chance!
« Reply #3 on: 2003-02-12 00:36:00 » |
|
In a message dated 2/11/2003 11:25:08 PM Central Standard Time,
hidden@lucifer.com writes:
Jake mind if I copy and paste this post of yours on my forum? We're
currently discussing this now.
[Jake] Feel free. Just be sure to include the link back to this thread on
the BBS. :-)
Love,
-Jake
attached: index.html
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
|
|
|
ElvenSage
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 288
Reputation: 7.52
Rate ElvenSage
Think for yourself, question authority.
|
|
Re:Let's give War a chance!
« Reply #4 on: 2003-02-12 01:33:46 » |
|
Of couse =)
|
Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.47
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re:Let's give War a chance!
« Reply #5 on: 2003-02-12 07:58:51 » |
|
I wont criticise the a just or even a necessary war. Although, I wonder if anyone, especially you, Jake, as you want to give war a chance, can tell me what Iraq has done now or ever to the american population, american borders, american security, american economy, american liberty or american freedom? Maybe their sin is that they possess abundant supplies of Liquid Black Gold?
|
|
|
|
|
MoEnzyme
Acolyte
Gender:
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 4.40
Rate MoEnzyme
infidel lab animal
|
|
Re:Let's give War a chance!
« Reply #6 on: 2003-02-16 12:40:12 » |
|
Quote from: Mermaid on 2003-02-12 07:58:51
I wont criticise the a just or even a necessary war. Although, I wonder if anyone, especially you, Jake, as you want to give war a chance, can tell me what Iraq has done now or ever to the american population, american borders, american security, american economy, american liberty or american freedom? Maybe their sin is that they possess abundant supplies of Liquid Black Gold?
|
From my PoV, I see this as mostly a campaign to clean up, what should have been cleaned up in the first Gulf war. How the administration uses the oil resources when they get there will determine how they are judged in the long run for this. If they use them mostly to enrich themselves (U.S. oil industry - GWB most important economic self-interest and special interest), then I expect that respect for US (beyond the fact that we have more guns than Gawd) will continue to slide internationally. They could use the resources primarily to rebuild Iraq and then hand them back to Iraqi interests once they get their act together. That might redeem us somewhat, but I have my doubts that it will actually go smoothly this way however given the inherent conflicts of interest that this administration has with oil issue. Recall how they secretly crafted American energy policy straight from the mouths of the oil industry, with no input whatsoever from other important citizens and interests.
As far as what has Iraq done? Well, I think the question is better what has Saddam Hussein done since the nation is essentially run as a cult of personality. I don't think any further elaboration is necessary on that point as the entire public campaign for war by this administration has centered on what Hussein has done -- almost all of it true BTW, except possibly their allegations of an Al Qeda connection. I am sure, however, that actions the US has taken will certainly encourage Hussein to seek out a better Al Qeda connection if we don't finish him off pretty soon. I could go back and criticize LOTS of things this administration has done to aggravate the situation, but since that is all past now, and thereby the current situation makes taking him out all the more important. I may not like the direction that this train is heading, but being too late to really stop it, I favor moving forward over derailing it. Not a pretty outcome, but the alternatives are probably worse now, indeed I think that perhaps has been the strategy for the Bush administration. If it can't sell the idea directly they will at least do what they can to destroy the other bridges that could have solved the problem. And the rest of the American public has been willing to go along as well, so I guess they have managed to create a blank check for themselves.
Basically they kicked the collective political asses of me and mine, so now I am giving war a chance. I don't mind that the French opose us, indeed I can understand it. I don't even mind if they even exercise their veto. It won't even matter if Tony Blair's government crashes and the British pull out. It is still going to happen even if it is the US alone. One might hope that the American public will hold it against the administration in the next elections if they fail to get international support, but military victory tends to wash those kinds of things away. By that time the issue will once again be "the economy, stupid". He may yet lose on that, but I'm not counting on this war being a negative issue regardless of international support or its lack.
-Jake
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.47
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re:Let's give War a chance!
« Reply #7 on: 2003-02-16 14:16:43 » |
|
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
From my PoV, I see this as mostly a campaign to clean up, what should have been cleaned up in the first Gulf war. |
Oh, you see that? Shouldnt that mean that the unnecessary sanctions be lifted so that there is a resumption of food, medical facilities in the cursed state of Iraq? How is a resumption of war and continued bad behaviour a clean up campaign?
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
How the administration uses the oil resources when they get there will determine how they are judged in the long run for this. If they use them mostly to enrich themselves (U.S. oil industry - (CUT)
|
Is it empathy to keep on talking about your own POV from the USA instead of trying to 'see' the other side of war?..
It seems to me that you are more interested in american public image as a consequence of war instead of the ACTUAL consequences. Even the inspections cannot go on forever. What America is stripping from the Iraqi people is not just their oil, they are stripping their diginity, pride and privacy..not to mention food and basic requirements for a healthy and wholesome existence. Humiliation and shame will not gain respect for America. Maybe USA needs to learn something from the Israeli experience of making people 'respect' their rules by force instead of trying to emulate the Jewish state.
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
That might redeem us somewhat, but I have my doubts that it will actually go smoothly this way however given the inherent conflicts of interest that this administration has with oil issue.
|
Your priorities are very clear.
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
As far as what has Iraq done? Well, I think the question is better what has Saddam Hussein done since the nation is essentially run as a cult of personality.
|
Fine. What has Saddam Hussein done to the United States of America?
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
I don't think any further elaboration is necessary on that point as the entire public campaign for war by this administration has centered on what Hussein has done -- almost all of it true BTW, except possibly their allegations of an Al Qeda connection.
|
I disagree. I think much elaboration is necessary. After the Persian Gulf War, how has Saddam Hussein been a threat to the world or to the USA?
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
I am sure, however, that actions the US has taken will certainly encourage Hussein to seek out a better Al Qeda connection if we don't finish him off pretty soon.
|
How can you be so sure?
I think American belligerance will increase terrorist threats to the country. What do you think?
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
I could go back and criticize LOTS of things this administration has done to aggravate the situation, but since that is all past now, and thereby the current situation makes taking him out all the more important.
|
I still dont see WHY. Maybe we should take out Sharon first. No, I didnt think so. Fresh blood flowing TODAY doesnt matter. Pre emptive strikes are more important and essential. Right, Jake?...
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
Basically they kicked the collective political asses of me and mine, so now I am giving war a chance.
|
I think you are wrong and I hope you will change your mind. Even if you lack empathy right now, I hope you will find it within you to feel ashamed when the outcomes of this war that you were so willing to give a chance is shown live from the persian gulf.
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2003-02-16 12:40:12
It is still going to happen even if it is the US alone. One might hope that the American public will hold it against the administration in the next elections if they fail to get international support, but military victory tends to wash those kinds of things away. By that time the issue will once again be "the economy, stupid". He may yet lose on that, but I'm not counting on this war being a negative issue regardless of international support or its lack.
|
Well thought, but still didnt answer my questions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
