Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
virus: Affirmative Action and Testing Anarchy
« on: 2003-01-17 00:25:33 »
I have, for many years now, personally held a view of "testing" that is = probably heretical to most of you. But here it is anyway:
I am a "TESTING ANARCHIST". All PRE-admission testing to schools of = higher learning should be eliminated. You pay your money. You learn the = material. THEN you take the tests. Let the chips fall where they may. = DON'T grade on a curve. Find a standard and fucking use it. If that = means flunking three-fourths of the class, well fuck 'em. That's NS. If = I want to write a check to the bursar at Harvard Medical School to take = Neuroanatomy III, they oughta by-god let me take it. And when I've = finished all the requirements for whatever alphabet soup I want to = concatenate with my name, they should confer said letters. PERIOD. Any = other system of education is pure elitist bullshit, promoted by the = entrenched to protect the entrenched. The reason I might enroll in = Neuroanatomy III would be to LEARN Neuroanatomy III! Not to make a = statement on my fitness to learn the material. They can derive that from = my PERFORMANCE. DUH!!
--
Walter Watts=20 <waiting for small shitstorm from education Ph. D.'s who would have me = burned at stake>
PS--And don't give me a bunch of crap about resource allocation = problems. Simple, elementary, unfettered economics solves all those = problems handily.
Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
Re: virus: Affirmative Action and Testing Anarchy
« Reply #2 on: 2003-01-17 21:03:38 »
veridicus x wrote:
> So admission would basically be based on your wealth, huh?
Where did I say that?
> Thats not elitist? Furthermore, how would the university select applicants from the pool?
Reread my post, kind sir.
There are NO applicants and no pool.
> > > "Scientia Est Potentia" > > LinK BeKon -(DPSO)Liquid Chaoz > > -- > ____________________________________________________ > Get your free email from http://www.outgun.com > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--
Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!"
> So admission would basically be based on your wealth, huh?
[ww] Where did I say that?
Right here: "If I want to write a check to the bursar at Harvard Medical School to take Neuroanatomy III, they oughta by-god let me take it."
If there is no other way to limit applicants, i.e. no application process and no pool then it seems the only way to limit the student body would be whether or not one could write that check to "the bursar at Harvard..." Perhaps with that statement you simply meant that the university would not, itself, deal with student aid. But then, how would the university insure they had enough professors and classes if they had no way to limit the size of the student body? (And how would they insure that only the people those in power wanted educated were the ones being taught?) Don't you think that the quality of the student body plays a substantial role in the quality of the individuals education, kind sir?
-veridicus
"Scientia Est Potentia"
LinK BeKon -(DPSO)Liquid Chaoz
-- ____________________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.outgun.com
I don't think education should be paid for individually. In my opinion, it should be paid for by the state. That will ensure that the poor can go to the same college as the economical elite.
Here in France, colleges are controlled and funded by the State, just like high schools and the such: it is paid for by the taxes everybody pays, and should you decide to study there, you don't need to throw in a dime. As for testing: There are several types of college, ranging in 'practical value of the diploma' from the faculté (the most basic type of college) to the Ecole Normale Supérieure (the hughest level). Whether you can study in a certain type of college depends on the results you got on the Baccalauréat or bac, for short (an exam we have at the end of High School). To enter the faculté, you just need to have had a passing grade on your bac. The Ecole Préparatoire will require somewhat higher results. And so on. I know some people who, altough they got their bac, decided to go through twelf grade all over again just to get a better grade, so that they could apply to one of the better colleges.
In my case, I got 13.5/20 on the baccalauréat, which would probably have been enough to go to an Ecole Préparatoire. But I chose to go to a basic faculté because the fast work-rythm of the Ecole Préparatoire would have crushed me.
I don't know which system is better - but I like the fact that education is paid for by State-money.
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Re:virus: Affirmative Action and Testing Anarchy
« Reply #5 on: 2003-01-21 14:05:54 »
So let me get this straight, Walter.
I went to high school and studied my ass off every single day. Didn't go on dates, or socials, just put my nose to the grindstone so that I would gratuate at the top of my class. Now that I have my 4.0 GPA, and aced the tests, I am accepted to MIT where I plan on going into molecular biology.
Problem is, I cannot get the class, cause some 50 year old who decided that he wants to go back to school wants the class. He worked hard as a plumber for years and saved the money to get the class that I NEED to take to go forward in my career. The plumber, though interested in the subject, has the same status as the achieving student, and can easily displace more deserving students.
What do you tell the youngest, best and brightest when all their work was for naught, and the career they want to train for is out of reach cause of overcrowding? "Forget those good grades son, you just get in line early at MIT and you will be in!"
Consider me an elitist if you like, but I am not interested in providing educational opportunities to everyone who wants them on a whim, nor am I willing to pay for everyone to go if they wish. After you are 18, you sink or swim, and if you can't swim, its better for the world if you sink. Is this fair? Sure, if you can swim.
For a classroom to be effective, you need to have willing, disciplined and interested students. Classrooms that have trouble spots, or people incapable of keeping up, cause a drag on the other students. open enrolement for all comers sounds to me like a mixture for destruction.
That said - I certainly would not mind if there were some Jeffersonian type schools available, but it seems to me that if money could be made by schools of this type, and accreditation could be accomplished, such schools would exist already in the US. As far as I know, they do not.
Besides, what about funding? I want funding to go to the schools with the best output - not to schools that stink (other than the basics like building maintenance). My school, the University of Arizona, spends loads of money on space related stuff. We build most of the instruments aboard any probe that leaves the atmosphere. This requires that the U of A has funding to be the best in optics, astronomy, robotics and several other schools of science.
I support the system that accepts people for students ONLY on the basis of the knowledge, skills, past subject work and dedication shown by the student. Economic standing, alumni parents, skin color, religious or native heritage, etc.... are all means to bypass fair acceptance.
[Ouri M]I don't think education should be paid for individually. In my opinion, it should be paid for by the state. That will ensure that the poor can go to the same college as the economical elite.
[Bill Roh]I support the system that accepts people for students ONLY on the basis of the knowledge, skills, past subject work and dedication shown by the student. Economic standing, alumni parents, skin color, religious or native heritage, etc.... are all means to bypass fair acceptance.
[veridicus]I agree with Ouri that education should be paid for by the state to ensure that the poor can go to the same college as the economical elite. That is one of the best ways to combat the cycles of poverty that are perpetuated, in part, by the policies of universities in the U.S. Bill Roh says that "economic standing, alumni parents, skin color, religious or native heritage, etc.... are all means to bypass fair acceptance," yet with this I must disagree. Some of these critera do, in fact, bypass fair acceptance, but many of them help to create it. Most rational people will agree that a university should seek to accept the student with the highest merit. The issue resides in how we determine the level of ones merit, which is much more convoluted then simply totaling test scores and grade point averages. Much of the grading and testing structure does not measure ones intelligence, insight, creativity, or ability, but simply determines ones' skill at memorization and regurgitation which has limited application in real world situations. The issue of affirmative action has to do with determining the applicants real merit which goes well beyond test scores and is an inherently subjective process. Students with the same test scores and grade point averages do not necessarily have the same merit when it comes to motivation, ambition, creativity, or insight. Affirmative action addresses the issues of societal circumstance and institutionalized discriminatory practices which have become so deeply imbeded in our culture as to be imperceptible to those in the majority. If two men are running a race and one has a 500 pound bag on his back, is it sensible to say that simply because the two men finish the race with the same times that they have equal abilities?
-veridicus
"Scientia Est Potentia"
LinK BeKon -(DPSO)Liquid Chaoz
-- ____________________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.outgun.com
hidden@lucifer.com (BillRoh) speaks from the warmth of the Sea of Cortez:
>So let me get this straight, Walter.
>I went to high school and studied my >ass off every single day. Didn't go on >dates, or socials, just put my nose to >the grindstone so that I would gratuate >at the top of my class. Now that I have >my 4.0 GPA, and aced the tests, I am >accepted to MIT where I plan on >going into molecular biology.
> hidden@lucifer.com (BillRoh) speaks from the warmth of the Sea of > Cortez: > > >So let me get this straight, Walter. > > >I went to high school and studied my > >ass off every single day. Didn't go on > >dates, or socials, just put my nose to > >the grindstone so that I would gratuate > >at the top of my class. Now that I have > >my 4.0 GPA, and aced the tests, I am > >accepted to MIT where I plan on > >going into molecular biology. > > Er.......I wish!!! > Tampa Bay, Florida is saying to Oakland, California, "Who's yer Daddy?!" HeeHeeHee! Offenses win games, but defenses win championships. It has ever been thus. > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Re: virus: Affirmative Action and Testing Anarchy
« Reply #9 on: 2003-01-27 14:18:35 »
I am spending more and more time in Cholla and boy is it nice. Spent the last week SCUBA diving there and it was inspiring. Thanks to El Nino, the water temp was 62, easy in a 7mil. I found a new species of Zooanthid polyp while diving that I cannot find in any of my books. It's exciting as the area is poorly cataloged and I always hope to find something new.
Now, as for Tampa and the big d-fense stuff. First let me say that if Warren Sapp wasn't handing out chrystal meth in the locker room, they woud never have gotten that far! None the less, I'll admit that they are the champs - now matter how I feel about them. As a Rams Fan however, let me remind you of the Rams of 1999 who beat the Titans in Super Bowl 34. You will notice that the Titans had one of the best d-fenses of the time and the Rams had the best Offense. The Rams won the game proving that if your offense is the "Greatest Show On Turf" you can indeed beat the best defense, even though the odds of past superbowls would say otherwise. The Rams offense, when clicking, was one of the best the game ever saw - far better than the Oakland offense was this year.
none the less, congrats on your championship team! Bill
>>hidden@lucifer.com (BillRoh) speaks from the warmth of the Sea of >>Cortez: >> >> >> >>>So let me get this straight, Walter. >>> >>> >>>I went to high school and studied my >>>ass off every single day. Didn't go on >>>dates, or socials, just put my nose to >>>the grindstone so that I would gratuate >>>at the top of my class. Now that I have >>>my 4.0 GPA, and aced the tests, I am >>>accepted to MIT where I plan on >>>going into molecular biology. >>> >>> >>Er.......I wish!!! >> >> >> >Tampa Bay, Florida is saying to Oakland, California, "Who's yer >Daddy?!" HeeHeeHee! Offenses win games, but defenses win >championships. It has ever been thus. > > >>--- >>To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to >><http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> >> >> > > >--- >To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > >
-- Reason - Vision - Empathy Tools for a healthy mind
> > I am spending more and more time in Cholla and boy is it nice. Spent > the last week SCUBA diving there and it was inspiring. Thanks to El > Nino, the water temp was 62, easy in a 7mil. I found a new species of > Zooanthid polyp while diving that I cannot find in any of my books. > It's exciting as the area is poorly cataloged and I always hope to > find something new. > > Now, as for Tampa and the big d-fense stuff. First let me say that if > Warren Sapp wasn't handing out chrystal meth in the locker room, they > woud never have gotten that far! None the less, I'll admit that they > are the champs - now matter how I feel about them. As a Rams Fan > however, let me remind you of the Rams of 1999 who beat the Titans in > Super Bowl 34. You will notice that the Titans had one of the best > d-fenses of the time and the Rams had the best Offense. The Rams won > the game proving that if your offense is the "Greatest Show On Turf" > you can indeed beat the best defense, even though the odds of past > superbowls would say otherwise. The Rams offense, when clicking, was > one of the best the game ever saw - far better than the Oakland > offense was this year. > > none the less, congrats on your championship team! > Bill > Derrick Brooks had a lot to do with it, too; he's a hometown boy, having graduated from Washington High School in Pensacola, FL. I saw him play high school ball, and he was special even then. > > joedees@bellsouth.net wrote: > hidden@lucifer.com (BillRoh) speaks from the warmth of the Sea of > Cortez: > > > So let me get this straight, Walter. > > I went to high school and studied my > ass off every single day. Didn't go on > dates, or socials, just put my nose to > the grindstone so that I would gratuate > at the top of my class. Now that I have > my 4.0 GPA, and aced the tests, I am > accepted to MIT where I plan on > going into molecular biology. > > Er.......I wish!!! > > > Tampa Bay, Florida is saying to Oakland, California, "Who's yer > Daddy?!" HeeHeeHee! Offenses win games, but defenses win > championships. It has ever been thus. > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > > > -- > Reason - Vision - Empathy > Tools for a healthy mind > > Bill Roh > >
Re:virus: Affirmative Action and Testing Anarchy
« Reply #11 on: 2003-01-29 18:45:30 »
Veridicus,
Sorry for not responding earlier, I did not notice your post.
Your first sentence sums up our differences nicely, and I doubt we could agree as we are coming from different directions entirely.
Veridicus:
Quote:
I agree with Ouri that education should be paid for by the state to ensure that the poor can go to the same college as the economical elite. That is one of the best ways to combat the cycles of poverty that are perpetuated, in part, by the policies of universities in the U.S.
I disagree because this system puts the onus of creating equality on the College institution instead of the public school system and parents. A system that assures that minorities or less skilled students get an advantage over non-minorities or more skilled students becomes a bandaid for the mistakes of the other institutions.
Affirmative action, as far as I have ever seen, make no attempt to actually address the causes of less skilled minority or poor students when it counts. Affirmitive action programs do not in any case measure what you said mattered:
Quote:
motivation, ambition, creativity, or insight
It is simply race specific. I went to a good public high school with mixed races, mostly hispanic , but quite a few black students. The bad part was that even though the minority students had the same education I did, were in the same income bracket, etc... the necessary GPA for admission at the University of Arizona was much lower than mine.
And as anyone knows that went to college, it is a piece of cake to get loans to attend school, and there are loads of financial assistance from tens of thousands of sources. The only people who do not go to college in this country are those that choose not to. Be it a public community college, or a major institution, the schools will find a way for qualified students to attend.
Veridicus:
Quote:
If two men are running a race and one has a 500 pound bag on his back, is it sensible to say that simply because the two men finish the race with the same times that they have equal abilities?
I'm the wrong person to give that one too, seein as I like UTism, zero-sum-games and final solutions. If you put a 500 pound bag on your back, or your parents or school does, it's too damn bad. The people need to recognize it BEFORE the child enters the adult world, or face the consequences. In NO CASE should the better performer lose his spot to someone else due to the baggage that person carries with them.
Equality comes from everyone being treated the same regardless of all considerations (short of criminal behaviour). In my opinion there is no time that inequality is the answer to prior injustices. The ends do not justify the means.
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