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Topic: Does God Exist? (Read 3477 times) |
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deadletter-j
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How many Engstrom's does it take?
 
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #17 on: 2005-02-17 22:47:43 » |
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Hey, David.
I get a little hung up on language. I perceive you using the word 'But', and it knocks me off of my flow. I interpret 'but' as containing some inherent contradiction. It knocks flow of vision between two people off into tennis, back and forth, argument.
I paint a picture in my head that this intrigues you, you would like to talk about it more.
How about I rephrase like this:
I write a story in my head that as people who aren't into xtians scale Jesus down into 'just' a man, does that begin to imply that other women and men can do the same thing? Layer information into the planet in a way that echoes and echoes together with other speakers of a harmonic meme: Gandhi, Zoroaster, St. Francis, Nelson Mandela, the teachers, the engineers, the helpers, you, me, Martin Luther King, Martin Luther, Jesus, Abram, Isaac, Joseph, The author of The Red Tent...
Does this help give you the vision of what I mean?
or are you more interested in the local 'We' than the 'Will'?
Feel free to contact me offboard.
p.s. This weekend I travel to Ann Arbor for 3 days to visit a friend. In that three days I intend to infect approximately everyone with the metavirus. I will report on the entire thing to the community, using email, boards and video footage.
For those who already know that they would like to see footage, please email your snail mail address to
Dead Letter b - deadletter@speakeasy.net
Feel free to call - 206-383-7306
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Hijacking everything ever knew about anything.
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ObfuscatoryAlias
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #18 on: 2005-02-25 18:27:48 » |
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Quote from: theonlygolux on 2005-02-13 07:34:30
I know this - my question was purely for rhetorical purposes. We don't know how the Big Bang happened, and until we do we haven't answered some of the questions that people with religious beliefs will hold up and claim to have an answer to.
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Unfortunately, a god may always be attributed to what science has not yet figured out. Religion will infinitely compensate for scientific advancement or just rely on the idea that complete cession to faith is a virtue and make claims the empiricism is accepted on faith. Et cetera, et cetera, blah blah blah.
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ObfuscatoryAlias
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #19 on: 2005-02-25 18:38:42 » |
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2005-02-11 16:42:04
No, since time began with the big bang it doesn't make sense to ask what came before. It is said that it is like asking what is north of the north pole.
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I believe there is the opinion that it does make sense to ask in what the singularity was contained. It is just an unknown that cannot be explained by space and time as we know them to be. Seems to be pointing to superior dimension of which our spatial and time dimensions belong.
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ObfuscatoryAlias
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #20 on: 2005-02-25 18:41:08 » |
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Quote from: knives on 2005-02-12 23:57:49
I would have to agree that God was once created for the purpose of explaining that which then had no other explanation. Yet you have to realize that this reason has changed since all the scientific advances can either prove or theorize very rationally about anything yet unknown, still the belief stands. Farther than that, who can disprove unquestionably the non existence of god, I am an atheist(although this might sound agnostic) because I hold the opinion that something as unprovable as !god! is not even worth my time, maybe I can not prove he does not exists but who is to prove that he does.
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I have always said that religion is for those who are uncomfortable not having all of the answers at any given time.
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fishsuit
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Bananaramapajamas
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #21 on: 2005-04-17 23:39:04 » |
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My thoughts on the matter:
Firstly George Smith who wrote Atheism, the Case Against God influenced my ideas, let him influence yours by reading his excellent logical analysis of religion.
That being said: there is no god. It's absurd. Miracles don't happen, virgins aren't pregnant without artificial insemination, and you won't do anything but rot when you die. This seems evident from a simple look into our universe. It shouldn't have to be stated, but it is necessary due to all this built up thought about god. George Smith has a good point to be made about god, that there is the Christian and then the Rest. Which one to believe in? The question begs for reason, something that religion abhors. Despite all this i love the many stories and beautiful works of art that have been born of human imagination under the (incorrect)belief in a god. And now, where does that leave us?
The Church of Virus is a memetic organization. In part we owe our existence to Richard Dawkins (called a "rabid atheist" by his opponents from the christian side of the spectrum), and Charles Darwin (the man responsible for evolution's conception, and hence a reasonable alternative to religious doctrine) has been made a saint. I hope i'm not stepping on anyone's toes when i say that makes this a largely atheist organisation. I should damn well hope so, because there are far more than enough churches devoted to myth preservation. One that makes myth alteration, evolution, and reexamination a central purpose is worth my secular humanist hoot. So, since this seems the place to say it, please join me as what George Smith would call a "hard atheist", someone who actively declares the nonexistance of god, and can logically back up their viewpoint.
My last interest is in the promotion of the CoV, and has to do with the theft of religion's best memes for our purposes. I will make it again if it seems apropriate. Here it is: secular humanism has a paucity of art and sculpture that actively venerates its leaders and notable individuals. Mostly our victories are universities and scientific institutions. I do not mean to disrespect those marvelous places and efforts! I do mean to urge the CoV community to attempt to outdo religion at the only game it can play well: art, architecture, and music. I want to see masonry structures (chapels?) with stained glass darwins, renoirs, and boltzmans. I want to see statues of David_Lucifer. I'm also willing to put my money where my mouth is, especially if the purchase of land seems a possibility. I have wanted this for a long time, what a joy if it could happen.
Thanks for reading this post, i hope it wasn't too long for your tastes.
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Pabreetzio
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I'm Patrick
  
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #23 on: 2005-05-05 02:39:14 » |
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I used to say that no, he does not exists. Recently, however, my learning of mematics has inspired me to interpret God to mean something other than that old guy with a long white beard and robe who snapped his fingers to create matter and then shaped it into the universe we now live in. It seems to me that God means a couple of different things, but one of them is equivalent to memes themselves.
It actually makes sense if you think of God as being this correct meme itself. Think about freudian Id and superego. The Id of the cell is to ensure its own survival, while its superego is a result from gene to ensure the survival of the organism its a part of. The organism then has an Id of its own, to ensure its own survival, and a superego that is as a result of memes, to do whats best for society. One could say that God is the superego of the person, to help out society, but it really goes beyond that. God is always one superego step above. If the meme is a meta-gene, its as if the Holy Spirit is the meta-meta-gene, or meta-meme, and that God is the organism thats not only made out of organisms as organisms are made out of cells, but hes made out of societies- churches. Hes beyond that even though- if societies were to form a supersociety through a super-meme, God would always be another superego away.
The whole idea of God then becomes a parable- just as Santa Clause is for the meme of christmas spirit and giving, God is the parable for the creation of the meta-meme
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Blunderov
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"We think in generalities, we live in details"
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #24 on: 2005-05-09 03:13:33 » |
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Welcome Pabreetzio.
And welcome to your exciting ideas as well. Don't have much more time than suffices to say hello but in passing, our ideas seem to converge. The other day I came across a definition of god (in a Christian theology book) that made no bones about the fact that 'god' is a metaphorical concept and is not to be taken literally. It seems to me that it may be easier to persuade people to modify their understandings than to persuade them to abandon that which they have always relied upon.
Best Regards.
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Eris_Quark
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Heathen Freethinker
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So for that matter...
« Reply #25 on: 2005-07-10 20:34:16 » |
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Quote:| (sic)...matter is indestructible... it can neither be created nor destroyed... so that itself is enuff to prove that there exists no creator! |
So what created matter and all of it's components!?
And I agree that man created god in their image. The personality trait's , represented in the old testament bible alone, is evidence enough the character called god is not extra-terrestrial or super-natural to humans mentality. But Hyman's writing scriptures, according to the socio-political atmosphere's of the times (certainly explainers the council of Nicea) allegedly inspired as laws of control of the masses, would appear to have the power of god's. 
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Mentor
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #28 on: 2005-10-26 13:02:08 » |
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2005-02-11 16:42:04
Quote from: theonlygolux on 2005-02-11 05:15:43
In my opinion to answer this question it is helpful to look at what i consider to be one of the main reasons that mankind invented God in the first place. It is likely to have been to explain things which were, at that time, inexplicable
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That is a popular theory. For another very interesting theory on the origins of religion, see Pascal Boyer's Religion Explained.
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1) How did this all start? We have extrapolated and theorised back as far as the Big Bang, but before that? Was there a before at all?
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No, since time began with the big bang it doesn't make sense to ask what came before. It is said that it is like asking what is north of the north pole.
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Personally, I think that it is important to ask questions like what came before the Big Bang. We can think of these ideas rationally. There are two possibilities: something and nothing. Inquisitiveness like this is what drives science. We may theorize that the big bang and everything we observe as a result is a local event in a larger universe.
It is not that the questions don't make sense, but that we need to beware of the answers people give. "We can't answer that question with current scientific understanding" is a perfectly acceptable answer. "God said 'Let there be light'" is not.
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Fox
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Re:Does God Exist?
« Reply #29 on: 2005-11-01 19:13:19 » |
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Quote:(sic)...matter is indestructible... it can neither be created nor destroyed... so that itself is enuff to prove that there exists no creator!
Matter is not actually indestructible, it is created from energy and can return to energy.
If you like, think of matter as highley consentrated energy many many times over.
Energy is indestructable, not matter directly. It is from this energy that everything was and is created, so in effect energy is eternal. It has no beginning nor end, it is absolute and the existence, comprehensively, which is the foundation of all creation.
But then if there is an eternal concept does that kill God? Existence would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?
The only awnser for such a question is that God its-self is the energy of the eternal existence, that God is beyond human comprehension and thought, but still apart of it....or to just simply not believe in it.
I am sure that there many people out there who dislike the idea and belief of God, but i would think that there are more people out there who dislike the idea and concept of nothingness.
Of course how can exisetence and nothingness simpley 'BE' togeather?
Surley these two ideals are where the twian shall never meet.
In respect to faith, there can never be any scientific proof for the existence of God, but thats does not mean that science cannot help us into the understanding and nature of God and each other.
What would the universal purpose of faith be if we had all the awnsers...If we simpley knew or could find the awnser to anything through physical evidence...Faith would be needless.
And faith, as i am sure we can all understand and relate to, is a important concept...weather we relate it to God or ourselves and eachother.
Some might say if we knew or could know the awnser to anything we could achieve almost anything, needless of faith.
Contrariwise, with faith, on a personal or a general level, of belief, confidence or trust by the way these make us feel, could we truley acheive almost anything. I am sure we have all felt that at some point in the past. We are only just beginning to find our own bearings with faith, on a personal level, in a world that has the potential to be so crule and unfair...Maybe oneday we will be ready to except faith in a general view, rather then only excepting it from a personal view, and come togeather in complete empathy and trust.
Quote:"We can't answer that question with current scientific understanding" is a perfectly acceptable answer. "God said 'Let there be light'" is not.
I suppose it would depend on who you were talking to. On a general level i would completly and respectfully disagree with you. But on a personal level i can sympathise, our choice is our own. It is futile to only ever believe what you can only physically perceive, for what is the point in taking a test with the awnsers already in it? you achieve nothing in the end.
Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory... Each time new experiments are observed to agree with the predictions the theory survives, and our confidence in it is increased; but if ever a new observation is found to disagree, you have to abandon or modify the theory.
Quote:I believe that God exists because Man created it...
That sounds a bit like proposing authors only exist because the characters from fictional books created them, or that life only exists because man created it...
The created cannot created the creator, lest the created not exist.
Quote:Man created the definitions. Considering God as 'something definable', therefore limited, or something that can be created, I believe that we can only face our own idea of God.
The concept and idea of God in this world is indefinable...the best way you could define it is through love.
If it is true and we can only face our own idea of God, then how did one man face and defeat those of a nation almost two thousand years ago, upon an insignia which still stands today.
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No, since time began with the big bang it doesn't make sense to ask what came before. It is said that it is like asking what is north of the north pole.
Since the big bang was the beginning, I would say that before it was an end...the end of what exactley i cannot say, and im sure would be inexplicable to say. As for asking what is north of the north pole, I would say that since north is no longer an option south would now lead in two directions, in respect to the circumference of the object or sphere in question.
Fox
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I've never expected a miracle. I will get things done myself. - Gatsu
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