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Joe Dees
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Losing his religion
« on: 2003-08-18 12:03:48 »
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Re:Losing his religion
« Reply #1 on: 2003-08-18 18:03:35 »
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Re:Losing his religion
« Reply #2 on: 2003-11-01 00:16:30 »
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Re:Losing his religion
« Reply #3 on: 2004-03-27 22:54:29 »
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I see it as rather hard for a devout Muslim to be able to follow their faith in  a free society, due to the glaring contraditions and lies throughout the Qur'an.

One of the main discrepancies of the Qur'an that Muslims know about but blindly push aside to defent their beliefs are the 'Satanic Verses'. These verses 'passed down from allah' spoke of three daughter dieties of Allah that were also to be worshipped. When he was writing the quran he preached this to his then scant followers who began to discredit him based on contradictory ideas, (after all, there is only one god, and Mohommed is his Prophet) following this episode, he had another 'vision' from Allah, only this time, it told him that the previous vision was given to him by the devil, and he should remove it, thus keeping his newly emerging religion intact.
final verses can be found at (an-Najm 53:19-22) in the Qur'an. the 'Satanic Verses translated, are roughly
These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) Whose intercession is to be hoped for.
these would have been at line 21 +

The Quran also preaches that Jesus, who although is regarded highly  in the Muslim faith, is not regarded as the Prophet. to explain himself, Muhommed actually discredits the Crucifixion of Jesus, a point mostly confirmed historically, regardless of what you believed his affiliation with a higher power actually was. (Qur'an 4:156-159)

verses such as these make it hard for muslims to follow the 'perfect mathematical precision' of the Qur'an without denying their own justification for discrepancies, for if they had to deny the perfection of the book, then they have to discredit it, which is punishable by death
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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. - Friedrich W. Nietzsche
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Re:Losing his religion
« Reply #4 on: 2004-03-28 15:12:27 »
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Stev, I took a look at that site that you told me to look at (www.bible.ca/islam). It made me angry. The amount of ignorance and hate persistant throughout the site was ridiculous. I don't think that a site like that has any merit in an academic discussion because it is clearly heavily biased. Even if it has refrences to the Qur'an. Things can easily be taken out of context and the ovbious anti-islam view that it is written from is saturated throughout the site. A site like that gives more an insight into how one can be blinded by hate than it does how Islam is 'wrong'.

And how can one religion be 'wrong'? What is a wrong religion? Sure there are discrepanceies in the Qur'an. There are just as many in the bible or any other religious text. Both sides choose to ignore them, change them, or are ignorant of them. People don't realize Islam and Christianity are pretty much the exact same religion. They are associations people use to segregate themselves. People clearly feel the need to segregate themselves; this need manifests itself in the form of religions, nations, races, cliques.. etc. Maybe it comes from our need to classify everything, or to associate ourselves with something more powerful than us as individuals. Its a prevalent theme in human society, good or bad. I think these separations are necesary for society, but certain groups are outliving their practical importance. I think the general agreement is that we need to keep our national distinction and that we should shed our racial distinction. Others are up for discussion. Religion is under review. We'll see in 100 years what was decided.

However, I don't feel that we should be attacking the doctrines of any religion. There really is no way to 'disprove' a religion because there is no rational explaination of a belief. Thats why its a belief. Moslims claim that Islam can stand up to science and can be proven. We could look into that claim, possibly disprove it, but never disprove Islam as such.

The question is if we should actively seek to 'disprove' religions, ie. convert them to atheism. Do we have the right to? Religions actively convert people, why shouldnt we? Should we take the moral high ground, not convert people and rely on the fact that our side can be explained rationally to spead the word or should we get out there and 'preach to the heathens'?

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Re:Losing his religion
« Reply #5 on: 2004-03-28 17:59:08 »
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i agree that the guy who wrote that did so out of hate, and that it is extremely biased, but for one to find information in any source they must attempt to cut away the biased views to extract the facts, im not saying to believe anything on his site, and most of his writings can be written off due to his bias, but so long as he provides credible sources to followup on, some facts can be obtained.

I realize that i did come off as insulting im my post and rather generalizing about muslims. as to your question of whether we should try to disprove religions, i say: if reason or scientifc evidence is contradictory to a religious text such as the Qur'an, would it not be benificial to remedy or make clear the false or contradictory passages which are questioned?

people are free to follow ther beliefs (well, at least here anyways) despite my stated opinion, based on personal ideas and my lack of faith. pointing out discrepancies in their holy book will not stop them from following Islam, but might make them look at some of Muhommeds words with a shed of scrutiny and at least lead to a less controlling, secular view towards Islam.
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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. - Friedrich W. Nietzsche
Joe Dees
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Re:Losing his religion
« Reply #6 on: 2004-03-29 01:50:49 »
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