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   Author  Topic: A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University  (Read 1752 times)
Hermit
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A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« on: 2003-06-04 01:33:35 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: funkyfresh123
Dated: 2003-03-20

Oh yes. This is neat.

http://virus.lucifer.com/

For those of you who read my thread about the ejaculation of ideas....

Open wide!

tee hee


Nice imagery

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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #1 on: 2003-06-04 01:35:56 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: bm36
Dated: 2003-03-21

It's funny how brilliant books of evolutionary theory are listed as sacred texts to this group, while their authors mostly published their theories (most notably Richard Dawkins and his theory in/of "The Selfish Gene") on the pretenses that theories of evolution may explain or at least provide a trail of man's origin, but they will never explain or provide anything analogous to 'morality'.



Of course bm36 is wrong - and the next post points this out.

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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #2 on: 2003-06-04 01:37:46 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: funkyfresh123
Dated: 2003-03-21

Hmm. Perhaps, bm36, you should check out the message board on the site. That is really the essence of what it's about.

Check out http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=32;action=display;threadid=11530

For an interesting presentation and discussion of 'Virian' morality. Far from 'never explaining' they go into significant detail.

You do realize that there is an entire "books" section dedicated to a general bibliography of the community located at http://virus.lucifer.com/books.html

As far as 'sacred' goes, I doubt that they would hold anything besides the 'self' as sacred. But, then again, I haven't read all of the material on the site.

Man! How was that infection though?

Do you understand what a meme is?
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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #3 on: 2003-06-04 02:33:58 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: hootie361
Dated: 2003-03-21

"the pretenses that theories of evolution may explain or at least provide a trail of man's origin, but they will never explain or provide anything analogous to 'morality'."

Actually, the idea of man's origin can have a HUGE impact on morality, since it relates directly to man's world-view. The simplest example is to take Creation vs. Evolution. Creationists believe in God and hence, believe in God's word as the ultimate moral code. Evolutionists denounce the idea of God, believing we just happened to randomly mutate into a marvelously functioning "bio-machine" and because of this, they can choose whatever set of morals they want because they're under no higher authority.



[Hermit] So from funkyfresh123 who quite sensibly posted on what we said, as opposed to what he assumed, we have hootic361 who demonstrates the opposite. This post is so riddled with errors that it is difficult to know how to respond. But I'll give it a try.

[hootie361]"the pretenses that theories of evolution may explain or at least provide a trail of man's origin, but they will never explain or provide anything analogous to 'morality'."

[Hermit] This of course is quite correct so far as the general gist goes. But it doesn't go nearly far enough.

[Hermit] Evolution is a change in allele frequency over time. This has frequently been observed. It happens. In accordance with the scientific method [ Refer FAQ: The Scientific Method ], the theory of evolution purports to explain this change. Thus the theory of evolution predicts and explains an observed phenomenon. No observation contradicting this theory has ever been noted, and many predictions made using the theory of evolution have been validated. If anyone wishes to challenge the theory of evolution, they would need to find some other theory which makes better predictions. Creationism does not do this. Creationism merely says that some unknown force makes evolution happen through some unknown mechanism or alternatively denies the evidence of our eyes and claims that allele frequencies do not change at all.

[Hermit] Then again, the fact that allele frequencies change over time has nothing whatsoever to do with "morality" and thus the theory does not attempt to address "morality."

[hootie361] Actually, the idea of man's origin can have a HUGE impact on morality, since it relates directly to man's world-view. The simplest example is to take Creation vs. Evolution. Creationists believe in God and hence, believe in God's word as the ultimate moral code. Evolutionists denounce the idea of God, believing we just happened to randomly mutate into a marvelously functioning "bio-machine" and because of this, they can choose whatever set of morals they want because they're under no higher authority.

[Hermit] On the other hand, the idea of morality, and indeed, morality itself, have changed hugely from the infant sacrificing days of the Bronze Age Palestine, to the slave keeping of the early Christian era, through the book (and person) burning era of the aptly named "dark ages" to the relatively modern resurrection of the so called Golden Rule of ancient Egypt, all the way to the undoubtedly modern idea that this should apply to all men. It takes only a brief glimpse at the "righteous" incestuous Job or child slaughtering (e.g Jephthah's daughter) in the "Old Testament", the execution by burning of Bruno [ Ref e.g. Hermit, "The Bonfire of the Crutches", 2002-02-14, Reply 1 ] by the "Holy Roman Catholic Church", "On the Jews and their Lies" by Martin Luther, the pogroms against the Jews of Europe (and others) "in the name of our Lord", most lately by Adolf Hitler [Ref e.g.  Hermit, "FAQ: Hitler the "Good Christian"" ],  or even the Christian's religious justification of the treatment of blacks in the southern US in the 1960s, to realize that our interpretation of supposedly "god given" morality is far from a constant "guiding light". I suggest that this shows that "morality" (or as I would say, ethics) has evolved over time in the process of transmision between generations and development of man as a social animal. Explaining this in the absense of a "theory of memetic evolution" would appear to pose quite a problem for those who would deny that such a thing exists.

[Hermit] Yet, while the above shows that "God's word as the ultimate moral code" is mythical, my response merely masks a much more serious issue. Presupposing, for the sake of the discussion, that "gods" exist, and ignoring the fact that I would call the "gods" of the bible utterly immoral, unethical and repugnant on a host of grounds, it can be seen that unless mankind had some "moral code" aside from their "gods", they would have been utterly unable to judge whether or not their gods were "worthy" of being worshipped. Which suggests that the religious have the entire sequence on its head. A secular ethical code is a prerequisite for the idea of "godly morality" to have any validity at all. This issue is examined at some length in [ Hermit,  "Virian Ethics: The End of God Referenced Ethics", 2002-03-06 ].

[Hermit] So while it is true that the "Evolutionists" (I would suggest that hootie361 was confused and meant "rationalists", "secular humanists" or even "atheists", which he has confused with evolutionist - which includes even the Pope today) can "choose whatever set of morals they want", this does not, in and of itself, differentiate them from the religious (who as we have seen above can do the same, but rarely think on the matter, prefering to accept what they are taught, "with the mother's milk" (Mark Twain)). Instead, the atheist (those without belief in gods) or even deist (those who like Jefferson reject the idea of "personal gods" but see the Universe as embodying the idea of god) has to determine for himself which ethics, and thus morality, he wishes to embody. The fact that many famous humanitarians, scientists and national leaders have been atheists, and that atheists are hugely underrepresented in the US prison system, might suggest to a thinking person that the considered ethics (and thus morality) of atheists is possibly superior to those who merely discount the possibility that any non religious person can act morally.

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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #4 on: 2003-06-04 02:36:27 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: bm36
Dated: 2003-03-21

Hootie,

Take the selfish gene theory. It ultimately says that evolution happens due to the ability of a gene to spread by dissemination in thriving offspring and that the gene is not concerned with anything except its future, successful replication. It's obvoius that you can say that there is no 'higher power' to aswer to, but does that really advocate a morality that we should embrace. Should attributing life to something that is not a theological icon mean that any morality is correct? Its best achievement is as an indication that there is not one correct moral law, as a religion might state.


Well said, bm36.

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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #5 on: 2003-06-04 03:09:46 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: bm36
Dated: 2003-03-21

Yes, I know what a meme is. What I don't understand is how you extrapolated so much misunderstanding on my part from my post. Another of my guffaws at this site was the reliance on 'popular science' books. Also, from what I gathered, I wouldn't even think that they would hold the 'self' sacred. I called them 'sacred texts' because the ideas that are essential to the philosophy and put at great value. Their originators are seen as saints but, like in the church, the saints are really the vehicles of God's work. So I think that the religion is more in praise of the world of ideas, which made me wonder only one thing: where is Des Cartes in this mess?


Oops
bm36, the "popular science" references are there because without at least a basic concept of science and logic, it is very difficult to develop a rational world view. So a major part of our effort to improve the world, lies in educating people in such contexts. To use the word "sacred" in this context is to completely miss the point.  While religion stagnates by asserting "perfection" (even where this means that some religionists might claim that PI = 3), science progresses by doubting everything, including the methods it uses, and so eventually disproves faulty ideas. Please refer to [ Hermit, "FAQ: The Scientific Method", 2002-03-05 ] , [Hermit, "FAQ: Faith and truth in science", 2002-03-05 ] and [Hermit, "Re:Why God cannot exist by Joe Dees & Hermit", Reply #5,  2003-05-31 ] . So our recommended texts are continuously reevaluated and as progress occurs, older, less accurate or helpful material is disposed of. The very opposite of what appears to be implied here.

Our "Saint" (only one so honored thus far, though others have been proposed) is not revered as a "Vehicle(s) of God's work" nor even as some kind of "superman" (or even superwoman, as the next "Saint" seems likely to be Hypatia of Alexandria [Ref e.g. http://poly.polyamory.org/~howard/Hypatia/Hubbard_1928.html ]). Instead, our "saints" are chosen as role models; as people who have attempted to exemplify the Virian "virtues" (http://virus.lucifer.com/virtues.html and who have eschewed our "sins" (http://virus.lucifer.com/sins.html) - sometimes despite huge obstacles; those we consider worth attempting to emulate; and those whom we consider worthwhile acknowledging as having made significant contributions to our delight in, or understanding of, the world. Unlike some religious organizations, we don't forget that our "Saints" were human, "warts and all", indeed, we see their imperfections as even more reason to respect their lives.

Finally, Descartes is in the logical place to find him. In the FAQ about the scientific method refered to above - [ Hermit, "FAQ: The Scientific Method", 2002-03-05 ] .

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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #6 on: 2003-06-04 03:26:41 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: hootie361
Dated: 2003-03-21

Hmm, I think you lost me a bit in your last post bm, but lemme see if I get the gist...

If someone believes in evolution, such as the selfish gene theory, you're asking does it mean we should embrace and advocate the morality associated with that theory? It doesn't mean you should, but it definitely means some people will. Of course, this doesn't mean that particular moral code is correct or should be. And as far as there being "not one correct moral law", if everyone lives by different morals, how do you judge someone elses actions/ideas? It was immoral by your standards, but moral by mine. Unless you boil it down to one set of "correct" and accepted morals to compare everything else to, you have no way to judge.


Please notice that evolution, as explained in Reply 3 above, does not require "belief." Belief, or as some would say, "irrational belief" is only required when there is insufficient evidence (or indeed, contrary evidence) to compel acceptance. In addition, as also explained in Reply 3 above, evolution does not address "morality" never mind compel it.

Then too, a "moral law" is simply a rule of thumb which you have inherited or developed to apply ethical considerations to situations. Notice, a rule of thumb which "you" have. Morality is always dependent on perspective and thus there are as many interpretations of moral law as there are perspectives available. One group attempting to enforce their "moral laws" on another is the cause of a great deal of the unhappiness on this planet.

The Virian consensus position on this issue is summarized at [ Hermit, "Re:different religions", Reply #6, 2003-05-09 ] . Essentially, the Virian "sins" (http://virus.lucifer.com/sins.html) and "virtues" (http://virus.lucifer.com/virtues.html) proposed by the CoV are intended to provide a basis for the individual to think about ethics in a way which will help them develop an understanding of complex issues such as these and so benefit all mankind. Additional material which you may find helpful in learning about "morality" includes [Hermit, " FAQ: Epistemology, Axioms, Reality, Consciousness, the Universe and Everything", 2002-03-05 ] , [ Hermit, "Virian Ethics: The Soul in the Machine and the Question of Virian Ethics.", 2002-03-05 ] and [ Hermit,  "Virian Ethics: The End of God Referenced Ethics", 2002-03-06 ] . For more on science and the scientific method, you might try [ Hermit, "FAQ: The Scientific Method", 2002-03-05 ] , [Hermit, "FAQ: Faith and truth in science", 2002-03-05 ] and [Hermit, "Re:Why God cannot exist by Joe Dees & Hermit", Reply #5,  2003-05-31 ]

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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #7 on: 2003-06-04 03:31:45 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: Hermit
Dated: 2003-06-04

A discussion of this thread, and several replies to issues raised may be found at http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=32;action=display;threadid=28595

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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #8 on: 2003-06-12 12:17:11 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: hootic361
Dated: 2003-06-05

Hermit,

I tried registering on your site, but it gave me some weird login error. Regardless, I read through the thread of "why god cannot exist" and Flag made several good points that you rebutted with scientific theories that, as you so eloquently put, cannot currently be tested (and probably never will be). Quite convenient for you, huh?

I suggest you read through www.icr.org. They write monthly articles that counter common beliefs about evolution, many of which you stated in your thread.
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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #9 on: 2003-06-12 12:36:49 »
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Source: Church of Virus and following (consolidated and edited)
Authors: Hermit
Dated: 2003-06-12

The "scientific theories" I responded with are, with one exception (Hawking Radiation, noted as speculative), grounded in observation, core aspects of the consensus position and make well tested predictions about the Universe. Thus your assertions here fail.

As opposed to this, ICR (Institute for Creation Research) is a nest of anti-scientific irrationalists with no credibility* outside of religious environments. Their specious "arguments" are in fact special pleadings, but are well refuted in the literature. I recommend the http://www.talkorigins.org site, and particularly [ talkorigins.org, "Frequently Asked Questions" ] to your attention.

Hermit

* Further to the ICR, please note the number of identified "dubious" qualifications reflected as being affiliated to them at [ Brett Vickers, "Some Questionable Creationist Credentials", 2002-05-31 ] (Thomas Barnes, Richard Bliss, Harold S. Slusher). Additional information on the ICR may be found at [ Steven Linke, "ICR Graduate School Catalogue and List of Publications", 1992-10 ]   and through linking from the [ talkorigins.org, "Arguments against Creationism" ] page.
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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #10 on: 2003-07-24 05:56:24 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: hootie361
Dated: 2003-06-18

For anyone still reading this thread, be sure to check both the "talkorigins" website as well as the "icr". My biggest problem here has been a misconception about what "evolution" actually is. I always assumed evolution to be dependent on one word...random. Apparently, there is the belief that evolution didn't have to be random. The belief is simply that there was an ancestral chain of life, whether or not it was caused by purpose or by randomness is irrelevent.

So Hermit, my comment to you would be that yes, I agree there is evidence of changes, of horizontal evolution. But I still boil it down to where did that first sign of life come from? Because we have no evidence or records (or for that matter any way of finding such evidence), anyone's assumptions of how life began in the universe (or how the universe itself was begun) are assumptions based either on the word of God, or their own opinions. Each side considers the other's to be a work of fiction.

If that's where you were attempting to drive me, then mission accomplished. If you're attempting to try to disprove the existence of God, I say you have one hell of an ego on you. Just as one example, because I don't have time to refute every single one of your ideas, you bring up how can anything be all powerful and all knowing? If God were all knowing, he'd be powerless to change what he knew...or if he were all powerful, how could he know before he made a change? If he existed outside the timeline for which he was acting, then it is possible. An example we have of this is a movie director. He is outside the "movie" timeline and has complete control over what happens in the "plot". In fact, he can see the entire movie plot, which may occur in 24 hours movie-time, but take 24 months of real time to complete. This is how you can be all powerful and all knowing. People have also raised this question to ask how God can answer everyone's prayers at once if everyone in the world prayed at the exact same time...or how God can be present with everyone in the world at the same instant. The answer is because he exists outside of this timeline. He does not live in the clouds, rotating about the sun as we do day in and day out.
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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #11 on: 2003-07-24 05:58:16 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: hootie361
Dated: 2003-06-18

Please note that neither Thomas Barnes, Richard Bliss, or Harld S. Slusher are mentioned anywhere on the ICR pages of credentials or scientists.

http://www.icr.org/creationscientists/physicalscientists.html

For that matter, note that the talk.origins webpage hasn't been updated since 1992, a DECADE LATER!!! Maybe I missed something, but I see a LOT of BS, MS and PhD's from schools that I'm familiar with. Additional information on the ICR may be found at www.icr.org.
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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #12 on: 2003-07-24 06:01:13 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: Hermit
Dated: 2003-07-06

Evolution and the Origin of Life

The whole point of Darwinian evolution is that it is not by any manner of means random. There is a process of selection (fitness) which operates surprisingly fast. This has been repeatedly observed, as well as demonstrated in the development of artificial life.

We have known since the 1950s that amino acid precursors can be produced directly under suitable conditions. Refer e.g. http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/NM/miller.html

As you will see in the above article, in 1969 a carbonaceous meteorite fell in Murchison Australia. It turned out the meteorite had high concentrations of amino acids (about 100 ppm) which proves that life can originate in space and on other planets through the similar mechanisms as postulated for earth (or possibly, but less likely, that life, having developed elsewhere, arrived on Earth, not through a “creation process” but on a meteorite or asteroid). In addition, the recent detection of life forms on Mars shows that life can develop in any reducing atmosphere.

So I think that, as usual, your "arguments" fail.

As a special point, please notice that rational people do not "believe", because belief only occurs when there is not evidence for something, or when there is evidence against something. When there is sufficient evidence to accept something as factual, or to reject a proposition, belief is not required. Only acceptance of facts.

Against the process of evolution, we have your assertion with no evidence whatsoever, and where many observed processes make it unnecessary, that there are gods standing behind the curtains, pulling the strings. To accept this idea requires a whole lot of belief.


Gods and time

As for your assertion that your gods are "outside" time, this requires the discarding of all physics relating to space-time.

Given that physics answers the questions we have about the things we observe, while the idea of gods prevents the questions from being asked (or why the development of science and knowledge stopped during the "dark ages" when the church ruled the world) in the first place, I know which idea I prefer and although I don't expect you to admit it, I suspect that if you were severely injured in an accident, that you would rather be treated by a doctor than prayed for by a priest - suggesting a possible conflict between your reason and your belief systems.

Let me refute your straw man, at least about the Judeo-Christian gods (The Jews were still primitive polytheists then), being "outside of time", using the primary source, "the bible".

Joshua 10:12
12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel*.

Leaving aside the cosmic impossibility of the above, why do you think the Judeo-Christian gods needed to "stop" the sun and the moon in order to have enough time to help the Jews to kill their enemies?

*PS This was not the only time that “ the LORD fought for Israel“. One of my favorite passages remains Judges 1:19, where “the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” So if iron wheels defeated the Judeo-Christian gods, whatever makes you think that they are immune to the limitations of space-time?

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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #13 on: 2003-07-24 06:05:37 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: Hermit
Dated: 2003-07-06

[hootic361] Please note that neither Thomas Barnes, Richard Bliss, or Harld S. Slusher are mentioned anywhere on the ICR pages of credentials or scientists.

[hootic361] http://www.icr.org/creationscientists/physicalscientists.html

[Hermit] They are probably embarrased. They should be.

[hootic361] For that matter, note that the talk.origins [Hermit: Hootic probably means http://www.talkorigins.org webpage hasn't been updated since 1992, a DECADE LATER!!!

[hermit] The talkorigins.org archives were established by Tero Sand (Refer http://www.talkorigins.org/tsand.html and http://www.megabaud.fi/~tsand/) and Robert Schadewald (Refer http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol20/8191_in_memory_of_bob_schadewald_12_30_1899.asp), both of whom are deceased. Fortunately, science doesn't change all that frequently, and the "creationists" don't change at all, except in their ever increasing degree of cognitive dissonance and the consequent dishonesty required to continue making false claims after being thoroughly refuted.

[hootic361] Maybe I missed something, but I see a LOT of BS, MS and PhD's from schools that I'm familiar with.

[Hermit] Perhaps you do. Why am I not surprised? Fortunately peer reviewed science tends to eliminate such babbling, meaning that ICR affiliated authors tend to publish only in pseudo-scientific journals and remain uncited except by their fellow believers.

[hootic361] Additional information on the ICR may be found at http://www.icr.org.

[Hermit] And reliable information on icr may be found at http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=icr&sp-a=sp070e7300&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=any&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-d=custom&sp-date-range=-1&sp-start-month=0&sp-start-day=0&sp-start-year=&sp-end-month=0&sp-end-day=0&sp-end-year=&sp-x=any&sp-c=10&sp-m=1&sp-s=0
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:A thread from "the triangle" - student magazine at Drexel University
« Reply #14 on: 2003-07-24 06:11:10 »
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Source: Church of Virus
Authors: hootie361
Dated: 2003-07-07

[Hermit] "As for your assertion that your gods are "outside" time, this requires the discarding of all physics relating to space-time."

[hootie361] No, actually it doesn't require the discarding of space-time physics. I gave you an example of what we see every day, bearing in mind that it was the simplest explanation to come to mind. I wouldn't have a clue of where to begin discussing the scientific implications of God being "outside time" because, quite frankly, I'm ignorant in that field.

[Hermit] "Given that physics answers the questions we have about the things we observe, while the idea of gods prevents the questions from being asked (or why the development of science and knowledge stopped during the "dark ages" when the church ruled the world) in the first place"

[hootie361] Accepting God does not require ignoring facts of reality, that's a common misconception. It does ask you to question what someone claims is a "fact" and think, maybe, there's an alternate explanation. For example, you say we have found life on Mars. I say, from what I've read, the findings on mars have not been *living* life, but of *possible* life in the forms of what *appear* to be fossils. You claim this proves that life can originate in the vacuum of space, where it's also just as possible that God created life throughout the universe in the first place. The only catch to my theory is God has to exist, otherwise my theory falls to pieces.

[hootie361] You know damn well why the Dark Ages prohibited science and knowledge. Because, as you said, the Church ruled those days and, although I'm sure they believed they were doing a great service to God, they prohibited man from helping other men (save by grace of God, ie prayer). No Christian scientist I've read yet has denounced the laws of science or said science is an evil (save the few die-hards), and why should they? Why should a person who focuses their belief system in God have to abandon the laws of reality in life?

[hootie361] Would I choose a doctor or a pastor to save me in the case of a medical accident? You're fond of Bible verses, so let's look at the one from the New Testament (pardon me for not referencing):
Quote:
"No evidence will be given to this generation."

[hootie361] Now you tell me...a pastor prays for me to have my severed legs reattached and my skull returned to normal and, without a touch from a doctor, it is made so. How do you explain that in non-divine terms? You can't, you'd have to except that there was either divine intervention (evidence of God) or you were insane.

[hootie361] So quite frankly, I would ask for both. I trust the doctor knows what to do to a human body in my condition to maintain my life, but I trust in God to look over the whole ordeal should he so choose. There is no conflict here, it's an understanding of the way God works and the way our perceived reality functions. You can put all your faith in the Lord for his direction in dealing with your daily life, but you shouldn't be surprised then, that your rejection of this reality leads to a shorter physical life.

[hootie361] As far as your quotes from the Bible, if you're going to read it so literally, I'm surprised you haven't asked why God needed to "rest" after the 6 days of creation? You realize, I'm sure, that there are a VAST number of passages that you could refute as internal contradictions. Why waste time asking questions of someone whom you know doesn't have the answer? Why not ask a pastor or priest or at the least a seminary student? If I asked a 5 year old to explain to me the theory of relativity, should I take his inability to reply as evidence that the rule of science is fake?
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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