No other system of thought in history has proven more effective.
This statement is arrogant and ill-informed. The fact that founders (and members) of the CoV are not aware of more effective alternatives does not rule out the existance of more effective alternatives. The fact that more effective alternatives have not become widespread knowledge in the English-speaking world does not mean that more effective alternatives have not been proven.
If CoV wishes to be a life-enhancing (harmonizing) influence on homo sapiens, it would behoove CoV to dispense with superfluous and indefensible statements of superiority. Unless CoV wishes to extinguish all alternative churches (a pattern of behaviour with a demonstrated track record of inciting violent behaviour), its objectives would be better served by recognizing that alternative memeplexes may have superiority over CoV in one or more fields that are aligned with the objectives of CoV.
If someone is already maintaining a guard over their internal memetic environment, these assertions of superiority are ugly (a disincentive to membership). Further, if CoV is to obtain superiority at some point in time, it would be well served by actively investigating other memeplexes that may contain advantageous memes and finding ways to incorporate said advantageous memes.
In short - acting like an arrogant teenager makes you look like an arrogant teenager. It's not a good look if you want to attract mature people.
Re:Belief in superiority may impair objectives of CoV
« Reply #1 on: 2004-11-08 20:57:40 »
Quote:
Reason No other system of thought in history has proven more effective. If truth is the goal, rationality is the way. A good Virion will endeavor to hold a consistent set of beliefs and act in accordance with those beliefs. Think critically, act rationally.
How is that in any way a controversial statement? It isn’t arrogant—it’s merely honest—to assert that reason is a more effective means of acquiring truth than is, e.g., intuition. Contrary to what some Easterners (and trendy Westerners) may believe, we humans cannot build some sort of direct pipeline to the truth through meditation and whatnot, so we need to rely on science and reason to find pragmatic truth.
Ah! I committed a frame-of-reference error! I believed that No other system of thought was a comparative reference to 'CoV', not 'reason'. (Perhaps a clarification of this in the wording might be helpful in preventing future ill-tempered, patronizing and embarassing-in-hindsight criticism )
As a trendy Westerner who subscribes to some Eastern philosophies, I would agree that reason is the most effective way of thinking. I do not believe that optimal human performance is achieved by thinking all the time, and may one day try to construct a reasoned argument to support that belief.
I am also not convinced that the best mode of thinking constitutes the best mode of accessing truth. I submit that 'empiricism' (the requirement that all theories be checked rigorously against evidence) trumps 'reason' when the one seeks to discover truths that have practical applications.
Re:Belief in superiority may impair objectives of CoV
« Reply #3 on: 2004-11-08 22:07:24 »
Don’t worry—all is forgiven. And I agree with pretty much everything you said in your last post. I think controlled emotions are an essential part of reasoning—because, for one thing, we’re never really motivated to think about something unless we have some sort of feeling about it. And, although I have certain problems with Eastern religions and philosophies like Buddhism, I think there’s a lot of wisdom that can be gleaned from them. And I tend to define reason rather broadly, so that—in my mind—empiricism is far more reasonable than so-called rationalism. Armchair philosophy rarely resolves any real issues, but science, epiricism, and pragmatism have helped our culture to evolve exponentially.
Re:Belief in superiority may impair objectives of CoV
« Reply #5 on: 2004-11-08 22:38:53 »
While I agree that religion without science is sterile, science without religion need not be blind. I’m more in agreement with the following Einstein quote: “A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”
Re:Belief in superiority may impair objectives of CoV
« Reply #6 on: 2004-11-15 23:08:56 »
Here is the full quote:
Reason No other system of thought in history has proven more effective. If truth is the goal, rationality is the way. A good Virion will endeavor to hold a consistent set of beliefs and act in accordance with those beliefs. Think critically, act rationally.
Re:Belief in superiority may impair objectives of CoV
« Reply #8 on: 2005-01-26 22:09:06 »
Here's one thing that I have noticed... if you read my other post in 'purpose of CoV', you may note that I am hacked right down into the specifics of language.
I would hypothesize that the reason this sentence causes one (and probably others, no?) person to misread it is because it is framed in the negative.
It says, "no other"
The articulation of things in the negative produces a conflict-styel response in the reader.
So how to reframe?
"Reason is the most effective system of thought in history."
I'm thinking that this framework encourages agreement.
just a root hack in the language.
Regarding Einstein's statement. What I think he is referring to is a vision of a harmonic universe. Without this, science is lacking in an ultimate goal. 'The betterment of mankind' is fundamentally self-serving, because any profitable work is therefore ethical science.
He's looking for scientists to be guided, in their minds, by a meme which calls for something greater than the sum of its parts.
Synthesis.
If we can come up with some really good examples and metaphors of synthesis, we will be able to call people's attention to the places where things begin to flow better, when systems begin to run, when lives become easier. Dischord is a form of morphogenesis - calling for the system to begin flowing. On the other hand, homeostasis is also calling for the system to begin flowing. Both are calling for synthesis.
Got any good words for this idea?
btw, nice phrase "frame of reference error". This is an important part of the new metacog language. if we put the entire language together, to describe nonjudgemental listening and error-correction (the language of systems management does not yet speak to the entire populace) we'll be able to push the idea of conversation as a systems model.
Re:Belief in superiority may impair objectives of CoV
« Reply #10 on: 2005-01-30 19:50:59 »
How do we here pretend to define religion?, and also!, how do you think everybody defines religion? As far as I understand, the CoV here pretends through the advancements in technology, to leave their grain of sand to a better tomorrow. Most believes acquired through time by Western civilization pretend us to accept by faith and expect suffering for divine redemption. To fully allow science to beneficiate us, for empiricism to even be practiced, you need to deprive yourself of anything that might drive you to desire a certain conclusion, for example, both sides I believe are slightly unqualified to uphold a good research, a theologist or an unrestrained atheist. But it can always depend on how you handle your emotions and keep an open mind to a situation(Much like greeks desired from their warriors in combat, "sophrosyne") and that is when my inital questions come to the point. How important it is to you to believe can determine whether you are willing to find something to refute your current ideal, so religion doesn't inhibit science, people do.
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