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Topic: That hell-bound train (Read 1850 times) |
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rhinoceros
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That hell-bound train
« on: 2004-03-29 11:14:52 » |
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This is an old story followed by a question.
The story came to my mind recently but I could remember neither the author nor where I had read it. After some excavation in my bookcases, I found it on a shelf stuffed with double rows of books. I ripped this short presentation from the net since it was better than what I could have written myself.
http://www.users.nac.net/bobsabella/HallofFame.htm
<begin quote>
That Hell-bound Train, by Robert Bloch. This was the first, and for many years the only, fantasy to win a Hugo Award. It was a traditional deal-with-the-devil story, about a poor roustabout who devises a deal seemingly impossible to lose: in return for his soul, the devil gives him a watch with the ability to stop time at any moment for all eternity.
As expected, the roustabout is too clever for his own good. He keeps stalling seeking a moment of perfect happiness worth maintaining for all eternity. A good job and relative comfort? Not yet. A wife and cute young children? Maybe, but just a bit longer. And so it goes, until he finds himself divorced, unhappy, broke again, aging, dying. All too soon there is no reason to stop time because he is so unhappy that who wants that moment to last forever?
And then the devil returns, ready to take his side of the bargain...
<end quote>
There are several interesting side-issues in the story, such as how the train has been integrated into folk culture as the vehicle of devil. But the really challenging question is this:
Would you be able to cut the deal, and how? Would you be able to identify the happiest (or a happy enough) moment of your life and get yourself to stop the watch?
The difficulty is that, when you are in a winning situation, like a compulsive gambler, you want to go for more. Of course, when you are in a losing situation, you don't want to stay there.
What would you do? At which moment of your life would you stop the watch? Or is it impossible for a human (or for you) to win this bet?
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MoEnzyme
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infidel lab animal
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RE: virus: That hell-bound train
« Reply #1 on: 2004-03-29 13:45:40 » |
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Thanks for this, Rhino. It seems that this would be a game where the
optimist (most of humanity) is at a disadvantage, always trusting that
things will get better. A pessimist on the other hand, knowing that things
can definitely get worse, may not pick the most optimum point to dwell on,
but at least wouldn't squander his chances hoping for things to get better.
-Jake
> [Original Message]
> From: rhinoceros <rhinoceros@freemail.gr>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 03/29/2004 8:14:52 AM
> Subject: virus: That hell-bound train
>
>
> This is an old story followed by a question.
>
> The story came to my mind recently but I could remember neither the
author nor where I had read it. After some excavation in my bookcases, I
found it on a shelf stuffed with double rows of books. I ripped this short
presentation from the net since it was better than what I could have
written myself.
>
>
> http://www.users.nac.net/bobsabella/HallofFame.htm
>
> <begin quote>
> That Hell-bound Train, by Robert Bloch. This was the first, and for many
years the only, fantasy to win a Hugo Award. It was a traditional
deal-with-the-devil story, about a poor roustabout who devises a deal
seemingly impossible to lose: in return for his soul, the devil gives him a
watch with the ability to stop time at any moment for all eternity.
>
> As expected, the roustabout is too clever for his own good. He keeps
stalling seeking a moment of perfect happiness worth maintaining for all
eternity. A good job and relative comfort? Not yet. A wife and cute young
children? Maybe, but just a bit longer. And so it goes, until he finds
himself divorced, unhappy, broke again, aging, dying. All too soon there is
no reason to stop time because he is so unhappy that who wants that moment
to last forever?
>
> And then the devil returns, ready to take his side of the bargain...
> <end quote>
>
>
> There are several interesting side-issues in the story, such as how the
train has been integrated into folk culture as the vehicle of devil. But
the really challenging question is this:
>
> Would you be able to cut the deal, and how? Would you be able to identify
the happiest (or a happy enough) moment of your life and get yourself to
stop the watch?
>
> The difficulty is that, when you are in a winning situation, like a
compulsive gambler, you want to go for more. Of course, when you are in a
losing situation, you don't want to stay there.
>
> What would you do? At which moment of your life would you stop the watch?
Or is it impossible for a human (or for you) to win this bet?
>
>
>
> ----
> This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2004 board on Church
of Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=301
00>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--- Jake Sapiens
--- every1hz@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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Kharin
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Posts: 407
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In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
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Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #2 on: 2004-03-29 12:02:25 » |
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Bloch is well worth reading, though he's best known for writing a novel called 'Psycho.' Apparently someone turned it into a film...
There's a nice website about Bloch at: http://mgpfeff.home.sprynet.com/bloch.html
Quote:| "Would you be able to cut the deal, and how? Would you be able to identify the happiest (or a happy enough) moment of your life and get yourself to stop the watch?" |
I think I'd be wary. A lot of literature tends to depict states of pure happiness as being somewhat aimless, a perpetual state of lethargy caused by the absence of anything to strive for. Of course, much of that literature tends to be christian, but much the same thing has always struck me about the christian idea of heaven. I think George Bernard Shaw put it well:
Quote:| "Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have described a day at the seaside." |
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Blunderov
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"We think in generalities, we live in details"
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RE: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #3 on: 2004-03-29 13:05:11 » |
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Kharin
Sent: 29 March 2004 07:02 PM
<snip>
I think George Bernard Shaw put it well:
"Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so dull, so
useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to describe a whole
day in heaven, though plenty of people have described a day at the
seaside."
</snip>
[Blunderov]
I think I would have been able to choose several moments in my life
where I have thought 'it doesn't get better than this'. Happily, so far,
I have been wrong.
Does anyone remember a Talking Heads album called 'Fear of Music'?
<q>
Heaven
Everyone is trying to get to the bar.
The name of the bar, the bar is called Heaven.
The band in Heaven plays my favorite song.
They play it once again, they play it all night long.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
There is a party, everyone is there.
Everyone will leave at exactly the same time.
Its hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, and so much fun.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
When this kiss is over it will start again.
It will not be any different, it will be exactly
the same.
It's hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, could be so much fun.
Heaven is a place where nothing every happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing every happens.
</q>
Best Regards
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Walter Watts
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Re: virus: That hell-bound train
« Reply #4 on: 2004-03-29 13:24:43 » |
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Anything done for an eternity, save discovery, would be hell indeed.
---Walter
<thinking that whoever would make the deal below hasn't thought it through>
rhinoceros wrote:
> story, about a poor roustabout who devises a deal seemingly impossible to lose: in return for his soul, the devil gives him a watch with the ability to stop time at any moment for all eternity.
>
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Pursue the small utopias... nature, music, friendship, love"
--Kupferberg--
---
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Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!
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DrSebby
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...Oh, you smell of lambs!
     
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RE: virus: That hell-bound train
« Reply #5 on: 2004-03-29 13:26:26 » |
|
...i have actually read the story...part of a fantastic collection of 101
short short sci-fi stories. one of the greatest books ive ever lost =(
anyways, i think a reasonable approach would be to recognize that age would
provide an artificial time limit on the 'best' time to stop the watch. i'd
wager that somewhere in your early 30's you start losing a little bit of the
'edge'...and in your early 20's your so unstable that it would be difficult
to gauge any point as contentment. i would probably force myself to put a
time limit on myself..such as, my 28th b'day or 29th. the real question
would be...would i want to be in a relationship at the time of clock
stoppage? or a cavorting single? and if i owned plants or a dog, would i
have to feed and water them still? and if i still knew Walter Watts, would
i have to continue to transport those strange blue plastic bins across state
lines for him after halloween?
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jake Sapiens" <every1hz@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: That hell-bound train
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:45:40 -0800
Thanks for this, Rhino. It seems that this would be a game where the
optimist (most of humanity) is at a disadvantage, always trusting that
things will get better. A pessimist on the other hand, knowing that things
can definitely get worse, may not pick the most optimum point to dwell on,
but at least wouldn't squander his chances hoping for things to get better.
-Jake
> [Original Message]
> From: rhinoceros <rhinoceros@freemail.gr>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 03/29/2004 8:14:52 AM
> Subject: virus: That hell-bound train
>
>
> This is an old story followed by a question.
>
> The story came to my mind recently but I could remember neither the
author nor where I had read it. After some excavation in my bookcases, I
found it on a shelf stuffed with double rows of books. I ripped this short
presentation from the net since it was better than what I could have
written myself.
>
>
> http://www.users.nac.net/bobsabella/HallofFame.htm
>
> <begin quote>
> That Hell-bound Train, by Robert Bloch. This was the first, and for many
years the only, fantasy to win a Hugo Award. It was a traditional
deal-with-the-devil story, about a poor roustabout who devises a deal
seemingly impossible to lose: in return for his soul, the devil gives him a
watch with the ability to stop time at any moment for all eternity.
>
> As expected, the roustabout is too clever for his own good. He keeps
stalling seeking a moment of perfect happiness worth maintaining for all
eternity. A good job and relative comfort? Not yet. A wife and cute young
children? Maybe, but just a bit longer. And so it goes, until he finds
himself divorced, unhappy, broke again, aging, dying. All too soon there is
no reason to stop time because he is so unhappy that who wants that moment
to last forever?
>
> And then the devil returns, ready to take his side of the bargain...
> <end quote>
>
>
> There are several interesting side-issues in the story, such as how the
train has been integrated into folk culture as the vehicle of devil. But
the really challenging question is this:
>
> Would you be able to cut the deal, and how? Would you be able to identify
the happiest (or a happy enough) moment of your life and get yourself to
stop the watch?
>
> The difficulty is that, when you are in a winning situation, like a
compulsive gambler, you want to go for more. Of course, when you are in a
losing situation, you don't want to stay there.
>
> What would you do? At which moment of your life would you stop the watch?
Or is it impossible for a human (or for you) to win this bet?
>
>
>
> ----
> This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2004 board on Church
of Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=301
00>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--- Jake Sapiens
--- every1hz@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
_________________________________________________________________
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"courage and shuffle the cards..."
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #6 on: 2004-04-12 19:09:07 » |
|
< quote from http://www.users.nac.net/bobsabella/HallofFame.htm >
It was a traditional deal-with-the-devil story, about a poor roustabout who devises a deal seemingly impossible to lose: in return for his soul, the devil gives him a watch with the ability to stop time at any moment for all eternity.
As expected, the roustabout is too clever for his own good. He keeps stalling seeking a moment of perfect happiness worth maintaining for all eternity. A good job and relative comfort? Not yet. A wife and cute young children? Maybe, but just a bit longer. And so it goes, until he finds himself divorced, unhappy, broke again, aging, dying. All too soon there is no reason to stop time because he is so unhappy that who wants that moment to last forever?
And then the devil returns, ready to take his side of the bargain...
<end quote>
[rhinoceros] A subtle point in the story was that it is not clear what "stopping time at a moment for all eternity" means. We can't take it literally (in the same way we can't take "losing his soul" literally) because we can't conceive a state outside the flow of time. So, we have to use our own interpretations of this state of "eternal happiness" (which actully happened here).
[Jake Sapiens] It seems that this would be a game where the optimist (most of humanity) is at a disadvantage, always trusting that things will get better. A pessimist on the other hand, knowing that things can definitely get worse, may not pick the most optimum point to dwell on, but at least wouldn't squander his chances hoping for things to get better.
[rhinoceros] Jake took an abstract game view: A desirable eternal situation, whatever that means. Using optimism/pessimism to evaluate one's possibilities for chosing the right moment for stopping the watch was an interesting thought. Perhaps we can also learn one thing or two from the stock market people (evaluating our past successes and the general climate and whatever else they do).
[Blunderov] I think I would have been able to choose several moments in my life where I have thought 'it doesn't get better than this'. Happily, so far, I have been wrong.
[rhinoceros] I wish I could say the same. In my good moments I always thought there will be better ones in the future, but I was wrong more often than not. I think I have started to learn now (a slow learner), but still, I would definitely lose the bet.
[DrSebby] anyways, i think a reasonable approach would be to recognize that age would
provide an artificial time limit on the 'best' time to stop the watch. i'd
wager that somewhere in your early 30's you start losing a little bit of the
'edge'...and in your early 20's your so unstable that it would be difficult
to gauge any point as contentment. i would probably force myself to put a
time limit on myself..such as, my 28th b'day or 29th. the real question
would be...would i want to be in a relationship at the time of clock
stoppage? or a cavorting single? and if i owned plants or a dog, would i
have to feed and water them still? and if i still knew Walter Watts, would
i have to continue to transport those strange blue plastic bins across state
lines for him after halloween?
[rhinoceros] Sebby took the most streetwise empirical approach (which is the most scientific one as well, I think -- isn't it strange?) He took into account empirical knowledge on human physical and mental condition. He also felt compelled to provide that "moment of happiness" with some time duration, but he seemed worried that *change* and *striving for change* would not fit in.
[Walter Watts] Anything done for an eternity, save discovery, would be hell indeed.
<thinking that whoever would make the deal below hasn't thought it through>
[rhinoceros] This is similar. Walter will not give up the happiness coming from change either, but he asks for less than Sebby. The problem is that we old farts have long ago failed to stop the watch on our 29th birthday, so we have come to terms with the idea that we are going to miss the action anyway. Being a peeping Tom for discovery is much better than stagnation in paradise.
[Kharin] A lot of literature tends to depict states of pure happiness as being somewhat aimless, a perpetual state of lethargy caused by the absence of anything to strive for.
<snip>
I think George Bernard Shaw put it well: "Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have described a day at the seaside."
[rhinoceros] The desirability of the award was dissected and questioned mercilessly here. It seems that a "perfect state" may give us pleasure but not happiness; *striving* for a "state" is indispensable for the animals that we are. As Kavafy put it, "Ithaca gave you the wonderful journey; without her you would never have taken the road; but she has nothing to give you now."
This discussion reminded me of a recurring issue which sometimes comes up in transhumanist communities when discussing Artificial Intelligence. The basic idea is that the great and all-powerful AI of the future will be able to improve itself by accessing its own programming.
The question is: If the AI has not been given specific goals to strive for, but it has been equipped with some reprogrammable circuitry with which it evaluates how "happy" it is with its own actions, what would prevent it from reprogramming itself to go "wirehead" and live in eternal bliss? Does it mean that freedom of choice is practically meaningless if there are not at least some hardwired constraints?
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Durazac15
Initiate
Posts: 49
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Take me with water and a grain of salt
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Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #7 on: 2004-04-12 19:22:48 » |
|
Perhaps someone else could have stopped the watch for me, perhaps while succling as an infant. I doubt that many of us could find a moment more happy, or worth living forever in, than at a moment of innocence, contentment and love.
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Smiling through it all
Durazac 15
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Walter Watts
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Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
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Re: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #8 on: 2004-04-12 22:40:18 » |
|
So true, Rhino. Also, we were young more often than not in our "reflections".
Walter
rhinoceros wrote:
<snip>
> [rhinoceros] I wish I could say the same. In my good moments I always thought there will be better ones in the future, but I was wrong more often than not.
>
> Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Pursue the small utopias... nature, music, friendship, love"
--Kupferberg--
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Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!
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DrSebby
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...Oh, you smell of lambs!
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RE: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #9 on: 2004-04-13 01:43:09 » |
|
...a very nice post rhino. i would also wager that notions such as these
are the reason that other intelligent life forms outside of our solar system
arent to be found galavanting around in little star-trek style space ships
for more than say 500 yrs or so in their species lifetime. what will we do
when we control everything? even if we cant actually do something, we will
be able to convince our brains that we have. once we completely master
biology and most of physics, what will we do? will sport and competition
still remain? it's a very interesting question. will a species-wide apathy
kick in when we finally fit the last important peices to the grand jigsaw
puzzle together? what would be left? "death moment energy physics(tm)"?
DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows----
From: "rhinoceros" <rhinoceros@freemail.gr>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:09:08 -0600
< quote from http://www.users.nac.net/bobsabella/HallofFame.htm >
It was a traditional deal-with-the-devil story, about a poor roustabout who
devises a deal seemingly impossible to lose: in return for his soul, the
devil gives him a watch with the ability to stop time at any moment for all
eternity.
As expected, the roustabout is too clever for his own good. He keeps
stalling seeking a moment of perfect happiness worth maintaining for all
eternity. A good job and relative comfort? Not yet. A wife and cute young
children? Maybe, but just a bit longer. And so it goes, until he finds
himself divorced, unhappy, broke again, aging, dying. All too soon there is
no reason to stop time because he is so unhappy that who wants that moment
to last forever?
And then the devil returns, ready to take his side of the bargain...
<end quote>
[rhinoceros] A subtle point in the story was that it is not clear what
"stopping time at a moment for all eternity" means. We can't take it
literally (in the same way we can't take "losing his soul" literally)
because we can't conceive a state outside the flow of time. So, we have to
use our own interpretations of this state of "eternal happiness" (which
actully happened here).
[Jake Sapiens] It seems that this would be a game where the optimist (most
of humanity) is at a disadvantage, always trusting that things will get
better. A pessimist on the other hand, knowing that things can definitely
get worse, may not pick the most optimum point to dwell on, but at least
wouldn't squander his chances hoping for things to get better.
[rhinoceros] Jake took an abstract game view: A desirable eternal situation,
whatever that means. Using optimism/pessimism to evaluate one's
possibilities for chosing the right moment for stopping the watch was an
interesting thought. Perhaps we can also learn one thing or two from the
stock market people (evaluating our past successes and the general climate
and whatever else they do).
[Blunderov] I think I would have been able to choose several moments in my
life where I have thought 'it doesn't get better than this'. Happily, so
far, I have been wrong.
[rhinoceros] I wish I could say the same. In my good moments I always
thought there will be better ones in the future, but I was wrong more often
than not. I think I have started to learn now (a slow learner), but still, I
would definitely lose the bet.
[DrSebby] anyways, i think a reasonable approach would be to recognize that
age would
provide an artificial time limit on the 'best' time to stop the watch. i'd
wager that somewhere in your early 30's you start losing a little bit of the
'edge'...and in your early 20's your so unstable that it would be difficult
to gauge any point as contentment. i would probably force myself to put a
time limit on myself..such as, my 28th b'day or 29th. the real question
would be...would i want to be in a relationship at the time of clock
stoppage? or a cavorting single? and if i owned plants or a dog, would i
have to feed and water them still? and if i still knew Walter Watts, would
i have to continue to transport those strange blue plastic bins across state
lines for him after halloween?
[rhinoceros] Sebby took the most streetwise empirical approach (which is the
most scientific one as well, I think -- isn't it strange?) He took into
account empirical knowledge on human physical and mental condition. He also
felt compelled to provide that "moment of happiness" with some time
duration, but he seemed worried that *change* and *striving for change*
would not fit in.
[Walter Watts] Anything done for an eternity, save discovery, would be hell
indeed.
<thinking that whoever would make the deal below hasn't thought it through>
[rhinoceros] This is similar. Walter will not give up the happiness coming
from change either, but he asks for less than Sebby. The problem is that we
old farts have long ago failed to stop the watch on our 29th birthday, so we
have come to terms with the idea that we are going to miss the action
anyway. Being a peeping Tom for discovery is much better than stagnation in
paradise.
[Kharin] A lot of literature tends to depict states of pure happiness as
being somewhat aimless, a perpetual state of lethargy caused by the absence
of anything to strive for.
<snip>
I think George Bernard Shaw put it well: "Heaven, as conventionally
conceived, is a place so inane, so dull, so useless, so miserable, that
nobody has ever ventured to describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of
people have described a day at the seaside."
[rhinoceros] The desirability of the award was dissected and questioned
mercilessly here. It seems that a "perfect state" may give us pleasure but
not happiness; *striving* for a "state" is indispensable for the animals
that we are. As Kavafy put it, "Ithaca gave you the wonderful journey;
without her you would never have taken the road; but she has nothing to give
you now."
This discussion reminded me of a recurring issue which sometimes comes up in
transhumanist communities when discussing Artificial Intelligence. The basic
idea is that the great and all-powerful AI of the future will be able to
improve itself by accessing its own programming.
The question is: If the AI has not been given specific goals to strive for,
but it has been equipped with some reprogrammable circuitry with which it
evaluates how "happy" it is with its own actions, what would prevent it from
reprogramming itself to go "wirehead" and live in eternal bliss? Does it
mean that freedom of choice is practically meaningless if there are not at
least some hardwired constraints?
----
This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2004 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30100>
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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"courage and shuffle the cards..."
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Blunderov
Archon
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"We think in generalities, we live in details"
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RE: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #10 on: 2004-04-13 03:07:44 » |
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Dr Sebby
Sent: 13 April 2004 07:43 AM
...a very nice post rhino. i would also wager that notions such as
these
are the reason that other intelligent life forms outside of our solar
system
arent to be found galavanting around in little star-trek style space
ships
for more than say 500 yrs or so in their species lifetime. what will
we do
when we control everything? even if we cant actually do something, we
will
be able to convince our brains that we have. once we completely master
biology and most of physics, what will we do? will sport and
competition
still remain? it's a very interesting question. will a species-wide
apathy
kick in when we finally fit the last important peices to the grand
jigsaw
puzzle together? what would be left? "death moment energy
physics(tm)"?
[Blunderov] You too, Dr Sebby - lovely post.
My thought is that even if all that remains is the arrow-of-time, the
struggle must continue.
But perhaps you envision dominion over even this?
Best Regards.
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simul
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I am a lama.
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Re: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #11 on: 2004-04-13 10:46:23 » |
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Another explanation : “island theory”. Look at what happened to Easter Island.
If there's overpopulation, and the system cannot sustain the people, sometimes the system can break down.
Most likely, we will need to begin populating another planet within the next 50 years, or we will suffer from “stagnation”.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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MoEnzyme
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infidel lab animal
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RE: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #12 on: 2004-04-13 16:00:56 » |
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We really have torn this game apart pretty well, almost more than it can
give us. I think Blunderov has made a good point. Something has to give.
Evolution, especially universal Darwinism, seems to dictate struggle. Our
ideals of heaven, while abstractly eternal, when actualized can only exist
as an intermission of some stability in the midst of a greater saga of
struggle, discontent and change. I think if we ever "figure it all out",
its only a matter of time until discontent sets in and someone tries to
change the way things are. Once this happens, unintended consequences
emerge once again changing the whole game and providing us with a fresh
need to figure it all out. Stuart Kauffman in his book "Investigations"
proposes that a major characteristic of life generally from microbes to
humans, is that over time it increases the universe of possibilities - what
can happen next - this being the collective effect of billions of organic
populations increasing their overall fitness. I assert that universal
Darwinism precludes us from ever controlling everything. Each act of
control carries unintended consequences however slight, adding to the
universe that isn't under our control.
-Jake
> [Original Message]
> From: Blunderov <squooker@mweb.co.za>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 04/13/2004 12:07:44 AM
> Subject: RE: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
>
> Dr Sebby
> Sent: 13 April 2004 07:43 AM
>
> ...a very nice post rhino. i would also wager that notions such as
> these
> are the reason that other intelligent life forms outside of our solar
> system
> arent to be found galavanting around in little star-trek style space
> ships
> for more than say 500 yrs or so in their species lifetime. what will
> we do
> when we control everything? even if we cant actually do something, we
> will
> be able to convince our brains that we have. once we completely master
> biology and most of physics, what will we do? will sport and
> competition
> still remain? it's a very interesting question. will a species-wide
> apathy
> kick in when we finally fit the last important peices to the grand
> jigsaw
> puzzle together? what would be left? "death moment energy
> physics(tm)"?
>
> [Blunderov] You too, Dr Sebby - lovely post.
>
> My thought is that even if all that remains is the arrow-of-time, the
> struggle must continue.
>
> But perhaps you envision dominion over even this?
>
> Best Regards.
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--- Jake Sapiens
--- every1hz@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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simul
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I am a lama.
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Re: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #13 on: 2004-04-13 14:08:33 » |
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Light-speed as a limit is, well, very limiting. And who's to say that earth wasn't populated by an interstallar “seed” of life
Every other “we are the center of the universe” theory propagated by popular pseudoscience has been shot down.
I expect relativity will be found to by “only applicable in certain circumstances” - just like other physics's (sp.?)
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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simul
Adept
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I am a lama.
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Re: virus: Re:That hell-bound train
« Reply #14 on: 2004-04-13 18:48:58 » |
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Do our neurons struggle with each other?
In utero, yes.
But not so much after.
Humanity, itself, is a collection of intelligent, networked organisms... just like the cells in our brain.
As a “superorganism”, humanity struggles against the forces of entropy and of internal stagnation.
There is not need for physical conflict among individuals in order to develop the superorganism.
The universe, itself, will provide ample struggle for humanity.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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