From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com> To: <virus@lucifer.com> Subject: virus: Empiricism Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:33:45 -0700 Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
> I surrender... I've been playing with you, and I hope you will take it in
> good humor. You call yourself an empiricist, yet you say:
>
> 1. The "fact" is that I am afraid.
> 2. I seem to consider your messages an ad hominem attack.
> 3. A poll would be empirical proof or disproof.
>
But a poll WOULD be empirical proof or disproof of my contention,
namely, that most members of the Virus list are empirically
minded; thus 3) is true. Actually, as far as 2) goes, I considered
YOUR message an ad hominem attack, by means of
simultaneously disparaging empiricism and labelling me as one (a
label which I do not dispute, BTW; I do not consider it a BAD
THING to be). 1) was an unsupported assumption based upon the
fact that you elided my suggestion of a poll to settle the matter
empirically (and yes, it IS empirically true that if a majority of
Virions identify themselves as empiricist, that a majority are,
unless they are lying).
>
> Numbers 1 and 2 are (incorrect) interpretations of data on your part,
> something an empiricist wouldn't do. Number 3 is testimony to the hypocrisy
> of almost anyone claiming to be an empiricist. The tallying of the
> communicating of the results of a certain verbal stimulus is so far removed
> from "the evidence of our senses" that if you refer to that as "empirical
> proof," you would have to take the testimony of millions of Christians as
> the same. Neither is empirical. As soon as you begin to ascribe meanings to
> data you leave the realm of empiricism and enter the realm of theory.
>
> Theories about data are one class of unempirical thing that has great value.
> But it's also possible to have theories about theories, theories about
> aesthetics, theories about people who call themselves empiricists. Now we
> enter "soft science." There may be something useful here -- there probably
> is -- but it's difficult to pin down or prove.
>
> When you begin creating abstractions out of nothing, though, you enter the
> realm of metaphysics. Just because ideas don't map easily to specific data
> points doesn't mean they are useless. Some of the most important ideas in
> history don't map to empirical data: equal rights, democracy, and goodwill.
>
> I did jump on you, but I have to believe that it is your intention, when you
> write blunt unsupported assertions, to provoke discussion. Although I have
> to admit it would be difficult to prove that empirically.
>
> All the best memes,
>
> Richard
>
> Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> Of Joe E. Dees
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 6:58 PM
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
>
>
> From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:48:12 -0700
> Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
>
> > Actually since you are a self-declared empiricist I doubt you'd be
> > interested in the results of such a poll, right?
> >
> Chickenshit. A poll would be empirical proof or disproof of my
> contention that most virians are empirically minded. The fact that
> you're afraid enough of one to attempt (what you seem to consider)
> an ad hominem attack as a means to change of subject speaks
> volumes. Your name means a lot less than the facts of the matter,
> and always will.
> >
> >
> > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> > Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> > Of Joe E. Dees
> > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 6:32 PM
> > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> >
> >
> > From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
> > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> > Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:25:51 -0700
> > Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
> >
> > > So you think you're speaking for all Virians, who in turn you believe
> are
> > > mostly empiricists. Is that correct?
> > >
> > I think MOST Virians agree with me on this. Ya wanna take a poll?
> > > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > > Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> > > Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> > > Of Joe E. Dees
> > > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 5:54 PM
> > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
> > > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> > > Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:35:37 -0700
> > > Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
> > >
> > > > You must be alluding to something I'm not familiar with, but I really
> > > wanted
> > > > the answer to the question who are you speaking for. Virians?
> > Empiricists?
> > > > All people? You and your eyelash mites?
> > > >
> > > I think I am on pretty solid ground in asserting that Virians are
> > > indeed, as a class, empiricists. This is supposedly an atheistic
> > > religion; how can ya hav va heaven in the absence uv va god (and
> > > don't gimme the standard dodge about "heaven on earth", either;
> > > that has nothing to do with the instantiation of a particular
> > > metaphysical belief system, to the exclusion of all others, as Virion
> > > Dogma). The evidence of our senses is a commonality with which
> > > we can intersubjectively agree; the moment you begin favoring one
> > > interpretation of that evidence over another, you sow the seeds of
> > > schism.
> > > >
> > > > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > > > Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> > > > Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On
> Behalf
> > > > Of Joe E. Dees
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 5:26 PM
> > > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
> > > > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > > > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> > > > Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:14:12 -0700
> > > > Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
> > > >
> > > > > Who are you speaking for when you say "we"?
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > > > > Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> > > > > Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On
> > Behalf
> > > > > Of Joe E. Dees
> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 4:57 PM
> > > > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: virus: missa viriis
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: "Tim Rhodes" <proftim@speakeasy.org>
> > > > > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: virus: missa viriis
> > > > > Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:45:00 -0700
> > > > > Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > Joe wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Any rituals we craft should be empirically based.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whyfore?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Because we tend to view metaphysical constructs as myopizing
> > > > > memetraps.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Then you view skypies as wind beneath your wings?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>