virus: Empiricism

Richard Brodie (richard@brodietech.com)
Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:33:45 -0700

I surrender... I've been playing with you, and I hope you will take it in good humor. You call yourself an empiricist, yet you say:

  1. The "fact" is that I am afraid.
  2. I seem to consider your messages an ad hominem attack.
  3. A poll would be empirical proof or disproof.

Numbers 1 and 2 are (incorrect) interpretations of data on your part, something an empiricist wouldn't do. Number 3 is testimony to the hypocrisy of almost anyone claiming to be an empiricist. The tallying of the communicating of the results of a certain verbal stimulus is so far removed from "the evidence of our senses" that if you refer to that as "empirical proof," you would have to take the testimony of millions of Christians as the same. Neither is empirical. As soon as you begin to ascribe meanings to data you leave the realm of empiricism and enter the realm of theory.

Theories about data are one class of unempirical thing that has great value. But it's also possible to have theories about theories, theories about aesthetics, theories about people who call themselves empiricists. Now we enter "soft science." There may be something useful here -- there probably is -- but it's difficult to pin down or prove.

When you begin creating abstractions out of nothing, though, you enter the realm of metaphysics. Just because ideas don't map easily to specific data points doesn't mean they are useless. Some of the most important ideas in history don't map to empirical data: equal rights, democracy, and goodwill.

I did jump on you, but I have to believe that it is your intention, when you write blunt unsupported assertions, to provoke discussion. Although I have to admit it would be difficult to prove that empirically.

All the best memes,

Richard

Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme" Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf Of Joe E. Dees
Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 6:58 PM
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis 

From:           	"Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
To:             	<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject:        	RE: virus: missa viriis
Date sent:      	Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:48:12 -0700
Send reply to:  	virus@lucifer.com

> Actually since you are a self-declared empiricist I doubt you'd be
> interested in the results of such a poll, right?
>
Chickenshit. A poll would be empirical proof or disproof of my contention that most virians are empirically minded. The fact that you're afraid enough of one to attempt (what you seem to consider) an ad hominem attack as a means to change of subject speaks volumes. Your name means a lot less than the facts of the matter, and always will.
>
>
> Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> Of Joe E. Dees
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 6:32 PM
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
>
>
> From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:25:51 -0700
> Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
>
> > So you think you're speaking for all Virians, who in turn you believe
are
> > mostly empiricists. Is that correct?
> >
> I think MOST Virians agree with me on this. Ya wanna take a poll?
> > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> > Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> > Of Joe E. Dees
> > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 5:54 PM
> > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> >
> >
> > From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
> > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> > Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:35:37 -0700
> > Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
> >
> > > You must be alluding to something I'm not familiar with, but I really
> > wanted
> > > the answer to the question who are you speaking for. Virians?
> Empiricists?
> > > All people? You and your eyelash mites?
> > >
> > I think I am on pretty solid ground in asserting that Virians are
> > indeed, as a class, empiricists. This is supposedly an atheistic
> > religion; how can ya hav va heaven in the absence uv va god (and
> > don't gimme the standard dodge about "heaven on earth", either;
> > that has nothing to do with the instantiation of a particular
> > metaphysical belief system, to the exclusion of all others, as Virion
> > Dogma). The evidence of our senses is a commonality with which
> > we can intersubjectively agree; the moment you begin favoring one
> > interpretation of that evidence over another, you sow the seeds of
> > schism.
> > >
> > > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > > Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> > > Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On
Behalf
> > > Of Joe E. Dees
> > > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 5:26 PM
> > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
> > > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > > Subject: RE: virus: missa viriis
> > > Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:14:12 -0700
> > > Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
> > >
> > > > Who are you speaking for when you say "we"?
> > > >
> > > > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > > > Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme"
> > > > Free newsletter! http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On
> Behalf
> > > > Of Joe E. Dees
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 4:57 PM
> > > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > > Subject: Re: virus: missa viriis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: "Tim Rhodes" <proftim@speakeasy.org>
> > > > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: virus: missa viriis
> > > > Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:45:00 -0700
> > > > Send reply to: virus@lucifer.com
> > > >
> > > > > Joe wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Any rituals we craft should be empirically based.
> > > > >
> > > > > Whyfore?
> > > > >
> > > > > -Tim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Because we tend to view metaphysical constructs as myopizing
> > > > memetraps.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Then you view skypies as wind beneath your wings?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>