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Topic: virus: Peanut Butter! (Read 2099 times) |
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Cassidy McGurk
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http://www.isec.info/ get me out of here!
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #15 on: 2005-03-06 15:33:03 » |
 |
I thought things scaled "up and down" not "in and out", must have
skipped a maths class.
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:39:22 -0800, global_hijack
<global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> I'm not certain which person I am, in this story: Am I Dr. O'Neill or
> the bank robber? I tend to think the former. You may think the latter!
>
> I hear you say that the frame is too small - I agree, it has been.
> Therefore I am hoping we can begin a discussion about broadening that
> framework.
>
> One thing that I believe will be important will be to 'keep track' of
> our conversation - it is a complex conversation already, and we've
> hardly said anything!
>
> Here's a short version:
>
> Ben says - "let's put it in CoV language"
> Jake says - "What do you mean by language?"
> Ben says - "Here, let me explain what I mean by language, and then I
> will send a long complicated email."
> Keith says - "I interpret you as a slightly off-the-rails overzealous
> memetics freak"
>
> Ben - "I haven't even gotten started yet!"
>
> So I've got this huge email I have been working on, in five sections.
> Whenever I get the green light that we are done discussing the basic
> concept of 'local language' - which I'm not sure we have, I will dump
> the email.
>
> The email has currently five sections:
>
> a) Weird self-reflective intro piece
> b) An example of a meme that scales in and out
> c) Examples of in-and-out scales
> d) Why are we having this conversation?
> e) Freeman Dyson's Unit's of Survival
>
> So far we have defined a local usage for the word 'language' - yes, or
> no?
>
> -b
>
>
> On Mar 4, 2005, at 6:10 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> >
> > I am reminded of the intensity of the very early days of the L5
> > Society/space colony meme.
> >
> > There was a guy who was so taken with the space colony idea and Dr.
> > O'Neill's casual statement that he needed funding to complete his book
> > that he *robbed a bank*!
> >
> > He got caught of course. I think the judge went fairly light on him,
> > but at this distance I don't remember the details of the aftermath.
> >
> > Anyway . . . . When you are intensely caught up in a meme, people who
> > are even more caught up have to be appreciated even if they do go off
> > the rails.
> >
> > The problem is that memetics is much like epidemiology. It goes a
> > long ways to explain how people spread all over the earth with the
> > aide of "culture," that collection of memes or replicating information
> > patterns.
> >
> > But the frame is too small to explain why *this* meme and not *that*
> > meme became ascendant. For that you have to look other places, like
> > physics or chemistry to understand why a meme of using dry stuff to
> > make fires will do better than a meme of making fires with damp stuff.
> >
> > To understand the hold cult memes like scientology get on people you
> > really need to understand evolutionary psychology and the environment
> > of small tribes in which our ancestors were reproductively successful
> > while our non-ancestors failed.
> >
> > And if you want to understand the partly memetic mechanisms that lead
> > to wars, you need to understand that a meme that does poorly in an
> > unstressed population may become the dominate meme in a population
> > under stress.
> >
> > Most of you on this list are up on these subjects. For those who are
> > not I can provide pointers if they are wanted.
> >
> > Keith Henson
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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I must remember to change this sig regularly
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MoEnzyme
Acolyte
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infidel lab animal
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #16 on: 2005-03-06 18:59:37 » |
|
Oh! yes CoV language! Right. That's fun stuff. More interesting than
"scientific language". I would however reckon my CoV language to not
violate scientific understandings, not call on skyhooks, supernaturalisms,
etc. Certainly leaves a lot of leeway for interesting usage, as this
remains a somewhat uncharted canvas. Perhaps even more participatory
experimentation. The language of memetics paints on the canvas of the
embodied mind immersed in the medium of cyberspace creating a meme-otype,
which then manifests into real world behavior and other phemotypical
manifestations --- then of course creating a feedback loop in which memetic
selection reshapes the meme-type for more effective replication. Got it?
So how is this working out for you? And realistically how can we improve
our situation through this mechanism? Even though we have been here for a
while, we are only just begining, at a sort of incubating/larval stage.
Perhaps a cocoon or chrysalis? Yes I do like biological language if that
is what you mean by scientific, but I think it should cling as closely to
an experiential level as possible, making the message sound more
fundamental and basic, for us (until nanotech comes of course)
biology=basic. Not necessary clinical (and no more than necessary), and we
definitely need to leave that academic sounding stuff behind. Perhaps
that's my point about language.
oops, a woman calls me away for now  my loins respond, and I gotta run!
-Jake
> [Original Message]
> From: global_hijack <global_hijack@speakeasy.net>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 03/05/2005 12:39:47 PM
> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>
> I'm not certain which person I am, in this story: Am I Dr. O'Neill or
> the bank robber? I tend to think the former. You may think the latter!
>
>
> I hear you say that the frame is too small - I agree, it has been.
> Therefore I am hoping we can begin a discussion about broadening that
> framework.
>
>
>
> One thing that I believe will be important will be to 'keep track' of
> our conversation - it is a complex conversation already, and we've
> hardly said anything!
>
>
> Here's a short version:
>
> Ben says - "let's put it in CoV language"
> Jake says - "What do you mean by language?"
> Ben says - "Here, let me explain what I mean by language, and then I
> will send a long complicated email."
> Keith says - "I interpret you as a slightly off-the-rails overzealous
> memetics freak"
>
> Ben - "I haven't even gotten started yet!"
>
>
>
> So I've got this huge email I have been working on, in five sections.
> Whenever I get the green light that we are done discussing the basic
> concept of 'local language' - which I'm not sure we have, I will dump
> the email.
>
> The email has currently five sections:
>
> a) Weird self-reflective intro piece
> b) An example of a meme that scales in and out
> c) Examples of in-and-out scales
> d) Why are we having this conversation?
> e) Freeman Dyson's Unit's of Survival
>
>
>
> So far we have defined a local usage for the word 'language' - yes, or
> no?
>
> -b
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 4, 2005, at 6:10 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> >
> > I am reminded of the intensity of the very early days of the L5
> > Society/space colony meme.
> >
> > There was a guy who was so taken with the space colony idea and Dr.
> > O'Neill's casual statement that he needed funding to complete his book
> > that he *robbed a bank*!
> >
> > He got caught of course. I think the judge went fairly light on him,
> > but at this distance I don't remember the details of the aftermath.
> >
> > Anyway . . . . When you are intensely caught up in a meme, people who
> > are even more caught up have to be appreciated even if they do go off
> > the rails.
> >
> > The problem is that memetics is much like epidemiology. It goes a
> > long ways to explain how people spread all over the earth with the
> > aide of "culture," that collection of memes or replicating information
> > patterns.
> >
> > But the frame is too small to explain why *this* meme and not *that*
> > meme became ascendant. For that you have to look other places, like
> > physics or chemistry to understand why a meme of using dry stuff to
> > make fires will do better than a meme of making fires with damp stuff.
> >
> > To understand the hold cult memes like scientology get on people you
> > really need to understand evolutionary psychology and the environment
> > of small tribes in which our ancestors were reproductively successful
> > while our non-ancestors failed.
> >
> > And if you want to understand the partly memetic mechanisms that lead
> > to wars, you need to understand that a meme that does poorly in an
> > unstressed population may become the dominate meme in a population
> > under stress.
> >
> > Most of you on this list are up on these subjects. For those who are
> > not I can provide pointers if they are wanted.
> >
> > Keith Henson
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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deadletter-j
Initiate
Gender:
Posts: 84
Reputation: 5.01
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How many Engstrom's does it take?
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #17 on: 2005-03-07 14:58:42 » |
|
I completely understood your message, Jake! I am going to use the very strategy you discussed.
Jake's message mentions reshaping the meme-type for effective replication.
I'd like to say it this way:
We put out the idea, another person listens, understands, kicks back another version, query for info?
We go back and forth on it for awhile, and eventually, we come to the 'heart' of the matter. The clearest, most interesting METAPHOR for what we mean.
That COMPLETES that part of the conversation.
BREAK BREAK
So what I did there is I took what Jake said, took it in, connected it to what I know, geeked out a response. Now I wait to see if Jake OR OTHERS agree that this email 'hits the nail on the head'.
In order to complete this node of the conversation, I would like to solve the puzzle: Using Jake's example of CoV lingo, below, I will attempt to frame the single meme that I have been working on so far - DO I HAVE PERMISSION TO CONTINUE?
Benjamin Grad approaches the CoV with a meme-plex. The meme-plex is, as of yet, poorly suited for replication online. It has taken months, MONTHS, of sharpening this meme in cyberspace for the meme-otype to even be this comprehensible.
I have learned so far that bombarding a system with quantities and complexity can enact predictable change in the system.
Very simply put: Systems do not like complexity. They push for simplicity. Therefore, to enact change in a system, increase complexity and hijack the system's own desire for simplicity.
What is the single meme so far that I am pushing?
"WILL YOU LISTEN TO ME LONG ENOUGH TO HELP ME MAKE THIS COMPLEX IDEA SIMPLE?"
Thanks!
-b
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jake Sapiens [mailto:every1hz@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2005 11:59 PM
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>
> Oh! yes CoV language! Right. That's fun stuff. More interesting than
> "scientific language". I would however reckon my CoV language to not
> violate scientific understandings, not call on skyhooks, supernaturalisms,
> etc. Certainly leaves a lot of leeway for interesting usage, as this
> remains a somewhat uncharted canvas. Perhaps even more participatory
> experimentation. The language of memetics paints on the canvas of the
> embodied mind immersed in the medium of cyberspace creating a meme-otype,
> which then manifests into real world behavior and other phemotypical
> manifestations --- then of course creating a feedback loop in which memetic
> selection reshapes the meme-type for more effective replication. Got it?
>
> So how is this working out for you? And realistically how can we improve
> our situation through this mechanism? Even though we have been here for a
> while, we are only just begining, at a sort of incubating/larval stage.
> Perhaps a cocoon or chrysalis? Yes I do like biological language if that
> is what you mean by scientific, but I think it should cling as closely to
> an experiential level as possible, making the message sound more
> fundamental and basic, for us (until nanotech comes of course)
> biology=basic. Not necessary clinical (and no more than necessary), and we
> definitely need to leave that academic sounding stuff behind. Perhaps
> that's my point about language.
>
> oops, a woman calls me away for now my loins respond, and I gotta run!
>
> -Jake
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: global_hijack <global_hijack@speakeasy.net>
> > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > Date: 03/05/2005 12:39:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
> >
> > I'm not certain which person I am, in this story: Am I Dr. O'Neill or
> > the bank robber? I tend to think the former. You may think the latter!
> >
> >
> > I hear you say that the frame is too small - I agree, it has been.
> > Therefore I am hoping we can begin a discussion about broadening that
> > framework.
> >
> >
> >
> > One thing that I believe will be important will be to 'keep track' of
> > our conversation - it is a complex conversation already, and we've
> > hardly said anything!
> >
> >
> > Here's a short version:
> >
> > Ben says - "let's put it in CoV language"
> > Jake says - "What do you mean by language?"
> > Ben says - "Here, let me explain what I mean by language, and then I
> > will send a long complicated email."
> > Keith says - "I interpret you as a slightly off-the-rails overzealous
> > memetics freak"
> >
> > Ben - "I haven't even gotten started yet!"
> >
> >
> >
> > So I've got this huge email I have been working on, in five sections.
> > Whenever I get the green light that we are done discussing the basic
> > concept of 'local language' - which I'm not sure we have, I will dump
> > the email.
> >
> > The email has currently five sections:
> >
> > a) Weird self-reflective intro piece
> > b) An example of a meme that scales in and out
> > c) Examples of in-and-out scales
> > d) Why are we having this conversation?
> > e) Freeman Dyson's Unit's of Survival
> >
> >
> >
> > So far we have defined a local usage for the word 'language' - yes, or
> > no?
> >
> > -b
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 4, 2005, at 6:10 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> > >
> > > I am reminded of the intensity of the very early days of the L5
> > > Society/space colony meme.
> > >
> > > There was a guy who was so taken with the space colony idea and Dr.
> > > O'Neill's casual statement that he needed funding to complete his book
> > > that he *robbed a bank*!
> > >
> > > He got caught of course. I think the judge went fairly light on him,
> > > but at this distance I don't remember the details of the aftermath.
> > >
> > > Anyway . . . . When you are intensely caught up in a meme, people who
> > > are even more caught up have to be appreciated even if they do go off
> > > the rails.
> > >
> > > The problem is that memetics is much like epidemiology. It goes a
> > > long ways to explain how people spread all over the earth with the
> > > aide of "culture," that collection of memes or replicating information
> > > patterns.
> > >
> > > But the frame is too small to explain why *this* meme and not *that*
> > > meme became ascendant. For that you have to look other places, like
> > > physics or chemistry to understand why a meme of using dry stuff to
> > > make fires will do better than a meme of making fires with damp stuff.
> > >
> > > To understand the hold cult memes like scientology get on people you
> > > really need to understand evolutionary psychology and the environment
> > > of small tribes in which our ancestors were reproductively successful
> > > while our non-ancestors failed.
> > >
> > > And if you want to understand the partly memetic mechanisms that lead
> > > to wars, you need to understand that a meme that does poorly in an
> > > unstressed population may become the dominate meme in a population
> > > under stress.
> > >
> > > Most of you on this list are up on these subjects. For those who are
> > > not I can provide pointers if they are wanted.
> > >
> > > Keith Henson
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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Hijacking everything ever knew about anything.
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deadletter-j
Initiate
Gender:
Posts: 84
Reputation: 5.01
Rate deadletter-j
How many Engstrom's does it take?
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #18 on: 2005-03-07 17:23:34 » |
|
Well, if we are on logarithmic scale, then I tend to think of it like a microscope - scaling 'in' with a 10x stronger lens.
Also, we go 'out' like this
our street
our city
our state
our continent
our planet
our solar system
our local cluster
our spiral arm
our galaxy
our galactic group
our supercluster
Aliens playing marbles (a la MIB)
Our eyes are exponential - in a mineshaft, your eyes could go almost Gollum-like in sensitivity. Also with Decibels - 150 dB, a jet airplane, is 10^15 times louder than the smallest sound detectable. Sensitivity to touch is similar.
Frequency, so easily modular by our voicebox, is also exponential.
Here's another way of looking at it that is, I think, even more important:
1D, 2D, 3D, 4D, 5D...
a point
a line
a plane
a curved surface (represented by level curves in a plane - topographic map, for example)
a curved space (represented by level surfaces in 3D)
In math, this is no big deal. A guy named 'Edward Abbott Abbott' (no joke) wrote a book called 'Flatland' about this concept.
Rudy Rucker expands upon the concept, in stories like, "Space-time Donuts", and someone just gave me an interesting book called 'The Boy Who Turned Himself Inside Out' by William Sleator.
To point out something about my own example above -
A point is 0dimensional space
a line is 1D
a plane is 2D
a space is 3D
a hyperspace is 4D
And then what?
So I often think about 'zooming in and out' or 'scaling in and out'.
Did that help?
-b
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sean [mailto:seankenny@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2005 08:33 PM
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>
> I thought things scaled "up and down" not "in and out", must have
> skipped a maths class.
>
>
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:39:22 -0800, global_hijack
> <global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> > I'm not certain which person I am, in this story: Am I Dr. O'Neill or
> > the bank robber? I tend to think the former. You may think the latter!
> >
> > I hear you say that the frame is too small - I agree, it has been.
> > Therefore I am hoping we can begin a discussion about broadening that
> > framework.
> >
> > One thing that I believe will be important will be to 'keep track' of
> > our conversation - it is a complex conversation already, and we've
> > hardly said anything!
> >
> > Here's a short version:
> >
> > Ben says - "let's put it in CoV language"
> > Jake says - "What do you mean by language?"
> > Ben says - "Here, let me explain what I mean by language, and then I
> > will send a long complicated email."
> > Keith says - "I interpret you as a slightly off-the-rails overzealous
> > memetics freak"
> >
> > Ben - "I haven't even gotten started yet!"
> >
> > So I've got this huge email I have been working on, in five sections.
> > Whenever I get the green light that we are done discussing the basic
> > concept of 'local language' - which I'm not sure we have, I will dump
> > the email.
> >
> > The email has currently five sections:
> >
> > a) Weird self-reflective intro piece
> > b) An example of a meme that scales in and out
> > c) Examples of in-and-out scales
> > d) Why are we having this conversation?
> > e) Freeman Dyson's Unit's of Survival
> >
> > So far we have defined a local usage for the word 'language' - yes, or
> > no?
> >
> > -b
> >
> >
> > On Mar 4, 2005, at 6:10 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> > >
> > > I am reminded of the intensity of the very early days of the L5
> > > Society/space colony meme.
> > >
> > > There was a guy who was so taken with the space colony idea and Dr.
> > > O'Neill's casual statement that he needed funding to complete his book
> > > that he *robbed a bank*!
> > >
> > > He got caught of course. I think the judge went fairly light on him,
> > > but at this distance I don't remember the details of the aftermath.
> > >
> > > Anyway . . . . When you are intensely caught up in a meme, people who
> > > are even more caught up have to be appreciated even if they do go off
> > > the rails.
> > >
> > > The problem is that memetics is much like epidemiology. It goes a
> > > long ways to explain how people spread all over the earth with the
> > > aide of "culture," that collection of memes or replicating information
> > > patterns.
> > >
> > > But the frame is too small to explain why *this* meme and not *that*
> > > meme became ascendant. For that you have to look other places, like
> > > physics or chemistry to understand why a meme of using dry stuff to
> > > make fires will do better than a meme of making fires with damp stuff.
> > >
> > > To understand the hold cult memes like scientology get on people you
> > > really need to understand evolutionary psychology and the environment
> > > of small tribes in which our ancestors were reproductively successful
> > > while our non-ancestors failed.
> > >
> > > And if you want to understand the partly memetic mechanisms that lead
> > > to wars, you need to understand that a meme that does poorly in an
> > > unstressed population may become the dominate meme in a population
> > > under stress.
> > >
> > > Most of you on this list are up on these subjects. For those who are
> > > not I can provide pointers if they are wanted.
> > >
> > > Keith Henson
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> >
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
|
Hijacking everything ever knew about anything.
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Cassidy McGurk
Adept
Gender:
Posts: 128
Reputation: 7.54
Rate Cassidy McGurk
http://www.isec.info/ get me out of here!
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #19 on: 2005-03-08 02:19:43 » |
|
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:23:34 +0000, Ben Grad - Dead Letter B
<global_hijack@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> Well, if we are on logarithmic scale, then I tend to think of it like a microscope - scaling 'in' with a 10x stronger lens.
>
> Also, we go 'out' like this
>
> our street
> our city
> our state
> our continent
> our planet
> our solar system
> our local cluster
> our spiral arm
> our galaxy
> our galactic group
> our supercluster
> Aliens playing marbles (a la MIB)
>
> Our eyes are exponential - in a mineshaft, your eyes could go almost Gollum-like in sensitivity. Also with Decibels - 150 dB, a jet airplane, is 10^15 times louder than the smallest sound detectable. Sensitivity to touch is similar.
> Frequency, so easily modular by our voicebox, is also exponential.
>
> Here's another way of looking at it that is, I think, even more important:
>
> 1D, 2D, 3D, 4D, 5D...
>
> a point
> a line
> a plane
> a curved surface (represented by level curves in a plane - topographic map, for example)
> a curved space (represented by level surfaces in 3D)
>
> In math, this is no big deal. A guy named 'Edward Abbott Abbott' (no joke) wrote a book called 'Flatland' about this concept.
>
> Rudy Rucker expands upon the concept, in stories like, "Space-time Donuts", and someone just gave me an interesting book called 'The Boy Who Turned Himself Inside Out' by William Sleator.
>
> To point out something about my own example above -
>
> A point is 0dimensional space
> a line is 1D
> a plane is 2D
> a space is 3D
> a hyperspace is 4D
>
> And then what?
>
> So I often think about 'zooming in and out' or 'scaling in and out'.
>
> Did that help?
>
> -b
>
Heh, Yes. Must be the Maths teacher in you.
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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I must remember to change this sig regularly
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deadletter-j
Initiate
Gender:
Posts: 84
Reputation: 5.01
Rate deadletter-j
How many Engstrom's does it take?
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #21 on: 2005-03-08 14:59:22 » |
|
I'm going to hem and haw, and then try to answer your question.
Let me warm up by practicing on other memes.
Money - a unit for human work
Justice - ?
Equality - that all units shall be the same
Equity - that all units shall receive what they need to thrive
Hope - a positive feedback loop designed to lead us towards change
Scurycatology - the art of hiding in plain sight
meta - a prefix meaning 'one level description higher'
Okay. I'm going to take a stab at it. Do you mind if I take a couple of tries? If an 'idea' isn't a line, a, b, c, d - if instead it is nonlinear, then it hard to put them together into linear syntax.
Attempt #1 -
Data + Metadata can tease a system towards synthesis.
If I give you data and metadata, a long version and a short version, then the concepts of the long version will be remembered in the short version. If the short version is a joke, then the entire thing is remembered with positive influence.
Attempt #2 -
Distant, complex metaphor is a form of telepathy.
A friend recently told me about some interesting research on animals and humans - when confronted with a problem, we can be shown fairly distant metaphor, and we will see what is 'meant' about how to solve the problem - without even realizing that we weren't given the exact solution.
Attempt #3 -
Humans react to stimuli up through a consistent pattern.
I've made a huge collection various versions of this pattern, and I would like to discuss it. In a really short version, it is "See it, get it, say it, hear it, do it"
Attempt #4 -
Nonlinear communication flow is becoming normative.
Damn it! I can't do it! I can not know yet what, for the CoV, will be the framing conversation that seems to be the guiding heart. The conversation is inherently self-reflective, and in the act of throwing in data, we will parse towards clarity.
It's like going to fundamentals of semiotics or mathematics - we have to define terms.
-b
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Lucifer [mailto:david@lucifer.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2005 03:10 PM
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>
>
> [quote from: deadletterb on 2005-03-07 at 12:58:42]
> What is the single meme so far that I am pushing?
>
> "WILL YOU LISTEN TO ME LONG ENOUGH TO HELP ME MAKE THIS COMPLEX IDEA SIMPLE?"
>
> What is the one-line version?
>
> ----
> This message was posted by David Lucifer to the Virus 2005 board on Church of Virus BBS.
> <http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=65;action=display;threadid=31655>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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deadletter-j
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #22 on: 2005-03-08 19:18:54 » |
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Oh, wait! Here's a one liner version.
The reason I totally forgot about this one is because I am trying not
to say the word 'meta'.
"Meta goes both ways"
'Data about or processes operating on'
Everything I am trying to say is right there. About closing human
feedback loops, about cascading people up through the system towards
action, about creating a global fifth column - it's all there.
-b
On Mar 8, 2005, at 11:59 AM, Ben Grad - Dead Letter B wrote:
> I'm going to hem and haw, and then try to answer your question.
>
>
> Let me warm up by practicing on other memes.
>
> Money - a unit for human work
>
> Justice - ?
>
> Equality - that all units shall be the same
>
> Equity - that all units shall receive what they need to thrive
>
> Hope - a positive feedback loop designed to lead us towards change
>
> Scurycatology - the art of hiding in plain sight
>
> meta - a prefix meaning 'one level description higher'
>
>
>
> Okay. I'm going to take a stab at it. Do you mind if I take a couple
> of tries? If an 'idea' isn't a line, a, b, c, d - if instead it is
> nonlinear, then it hard to put them together into linear syntax.
>
>
> Attempt #1 -
>
> Data + Metadata can tease a system towards synthesis.
>
>
> If I give you data and metadata, a long version and a short version,
> then the concepts of the long version will be remembered in the short
> version. If the short version is a joke, then the entire thing is
> remembered with positive influence.
>
>
> Attempt #2 -
>
> Distant, complex metaphor is a form of telepathy.
>
>
> A friend recently told me about some interesting research on animals
> and humans - when confronted with a problem, we can be shown fairly
> distant metaphor, and we will see what is 'meant' about how to solve
> the problem - without even realizing that we weren't given the exact
> solution.
>
>
> Attempt #3 -
>
> Humans react to stimuli up through a consistent pattern.
>
> I've made a huge collection various versions of this pattern, and I
> would like to discuss it. In a really short version, it is "See it,
> get it, say it, hear it, do it"
>
>
> Attempt #4 -
>
> Nonlinear communication flow is becoming normative.
>
>
>
> Damn it! I can't do it! I can not know yet what, for the CoV, will be
> the framing conversation that seems to be the guiding heart. The
> conversation is inherently self-reflective, and in the act of throwing
> in data, we will parse towards clarity.
>
> It's like going to fundamentals of semiotics or mathematics - we have
> to define terms.
>
>
> -b
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Lucifer [mailto:david@lucifer.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2005 03:10 PM
>> To: virus@lucifer.com
>> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>>
>>
>> [quote from: deadletterb on 2005-03-07 at 12:58:42]
>> What is the single meme so far that I am pushing?
>>
>> "WILL YOU LISTEN TO ME LONG ENOUGH TO HELP ME MAKE THIS COMPLEX IDEA
>> SIMPLE?"
>>
>> What is the one-line version?
>>
>> ----
>> This message was posted by David Lucifer to the Virus 2005 board on
>> Church of Virus BBS.
>> <http://www.churchofvirus.org/bbs/index.php?board=65;action=display;
>> threadid=31655>
>> ---
>> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
>> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>>
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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simul
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #23 on: 2005-03-08 20:53:52 » |
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I notice the From: address of global_hijack changes on a regular basis.
What is the purpose of this, do you think?
GH sounds like a person ... someone who is in serious need of grounding.
Do you think GH eats a lot of *raw* foods?
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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MoEnzyme
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infidel lab animal
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #25 on: 2005-03-09 13:48:54 » |
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Whether mad, obsessed, etc. he does seem a bit entertaining. Grasping for
something ephemeral like a delusional apparition. Something of a bot-like
endurance. Craves attention by his own admission. Seemingly responsive,
recognizing various CoV entities as he rants in otherwise loose
associations. A belief in telepathy leaving open the possibility for
schizotypical manifestations of experience in the same. A rather common
grab bag of attributes that the CoV attracts. Whether normally considered
dysfunctional or not by IRL society, can we put this to work constructively
in a different medium like this? Not quite Brett-like (does anybody still
remember that character?), but perhaps some shades and phases thereof.
Certainly friendly enough so far. How about it, global hijack? Do you
like the third person, or do you wish to clarify something yourself? I
suppose the foregoing could describe many CoVers at some point during their
own infections. Perhaps religion and insanity necessarily intermingle on
some level or another, including http://www.churchofvirus.org
all the best memes,
-Jake
> [Original Message]
> From: Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com>
> To: Church of Virus <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 03/08/2005 5:55:34 PM
> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>
> I notice the From: address of global_hijack changes on a regular basis.
>
> What is the purpose of this, do you think?
>
> GH sounds like a person ... someone who is in serious need of grounding.
>
> Do you think GH eats a lot of *raw* foods?
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
You mean like a homeless person? an interesting hypothesis . . . -J
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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deadletter-j
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #26 on: 2005-03-09 15:58:27 » |
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First, let me say: It is NOT my intention to waste anyone's time. So I propose this - an artificial strategy to aid communication.
I will talk about the implications of these ideas, and then I will take a few days off. That way, I give you a break, and I resist the urge to talk and talk and talk.
I interpret this last few emails as the very subtle beginnings of an autoimmune response - expressions of uncertainty broadcast aloud, in David Lucifer's request for a one-liner version and in Erik's use of the word 'grounding'. Metaphor: A few years ago I had this same problem with (my now ex) wife - I never gave her a chance to _rest_.
As long as you're entertained, we're doing okay.
Set of implications:
If there is a simple pattern in how we receive and give out information, that pattern could be described.
If the pattern can be described as
'hear it, understand it, say it, listen for it, act on it, reflect on it'
or
'denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, <reflection>'
or
'forming, storming, norming, <practicing>, performing, <reflection>'
or
'Knowledge, Comprehension, Application, Analysis, Synthesis, Evaluate'
or
'Problem -> Question, Identify, Strategize, Solve, Verify'
or
The neologized version:
Grok information in - the entire experience as one set
Zazz - connect 'this is as this'
Geek out a response
Scrum - go back and forth with each person geeking out, and eventually, it comes to
Do - Action based on the set of perceptions, interpretations, articulations and reactions to articulations.
If there is a basic pattern in how we react to information individually and as groups (google '5 stages'), then that implies that action/reaction can be described.
If actions and reactions can be described, that implies that they can be predicted.
If actions and reactions can be predicted, that implies that, through experimentation, we can find out what in information flow _blocks_ the path from perception to action.
I believe that, through experimentation, I have discovered the following things:
A perception of negative intent kicks the system into reacting ABOUT intent.
A perception of negative language kicks the system into reacting ABOUT language.
A perception of too much talking kicks the system into reacting about quantity - that's where I am at right now.
A perception of listening brings the system to work out its own understanding of its perceptions. Then it works out the implications of its own statements. Then it works out the specific actions to take based on implications. Then it begins taking action.
So if good listening = hearing and giving back parsed data without judgement, if good listening = closing the feedback loop, this implies that closing feedback loops is how to cascade a system up towards action.
That's a pretty major point of mine, right there.
So. Implications of this.
If a group of people are brought into contact with a perception of themselves, they adjust their behavior.
If humans adjust their behavior based on the feedback they receive, then memetics can be based upon layering in information as information is mirrored back.
Examples:
I tell my kid that he's a great helper. He basks in the glow of positive attention, and voila, he works hard to become a good helper.
I tell my kid, "why aren't you helping?" What's his reaction? To explain why he's not helping, of course. Or to take the implied criticism.
We know from the obedience trials that humans take their feedback about how to interpret a given situation from the herd. This implies that, using sleepers in the herd, we can manipulate the herd into collectively 'deciding' that it believes in certain things.
Example:
We are planning to get in a fight, publicly. The fight is about Mental Health. The goal is to get people to identify positively for people with mental health, with public services for mental health. My character goes on and on about how bullshit it is that we pay for mental retards, etc.
Sarah's character practices standing up to me, enlisting the aid of passerby. Her apparent emotional distress leads them to feel invested, and so they speak on her behalf. They have been tricked into action. The eye->action construct goes the other way, as well, so tricking people into action imprints the message more than, say, surveying people about their opinions about mental health.
Action + Language = metaphor.
How to make it a positive metaphor? At the end, we bow, and all our sleepers in the crowd applaud. Aha! It's ART. Now I get it. The human system does have a binary level - anger or laughter. Very close together. What an effective message!
The people are turned into membots. ACTION creates ripples that make people carry the message away. They want to tell people _about_ what they saw.
Action creates conversation. Conversation causes people to take stands. Taking a particular stand brings the undecided into decided. Deciding rules how we interpret all the memories in relation to the idea.
BREAK BREAK
Okay, let's suppose I got you to agree that all the previous is true. What does that imply?
If we take it as truth that
a) there is a pattern that can be hacked in human I/O systems, using actions to imprint messages according to memetic theory that can be tested by experiment, then what?
This implies that groups of people with a shared understanding of this theory could manipulate other people.
Because I have positive intent (I think), I want to use this principle to 'trick' the world into taking in this knowledge - because understanding how we are being manipulated allows us to view the manipulation differently.
If the people collectively absorb the knowledge of how we are manipulated, we will grow an immunity to manipulation.
Eric Frank Russell wrote a story called, "And then there were none..." which can be found at:
http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.htm
I think I will stop there. I was going to write a whole lot more about how we are going to manipulate the world AND tell them how we are doing it.
It comes down to manipulating Bob while showing Charlie how it is done, and manipulating Charlie while showing Bob how it is done.
How about I leave it for a few days, or even longer, and when I come back, I will ask you what parts you might want to discuss.
a) Human structure in decision making - Grok Zazz Geek Scrum Love
b) Effects of nonlinear communication on human systems, with real examples
c) mathematical structures for non-hierarchical collective processing tools
d) The Plan to catalyze the global paradigm shift
e) Actions that we are undertaking right now to help kick off a video revolution hidden in a joke
Ideas, any idea, that we would push around the globe, has implications. The implications anchor the idea into a web with other ideas. The web can be described as a set of clouds of memories in 5 dimensions.
Signing off for a few days.
-b
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virus: Peanut Butter!
« Reply #27 on: 2005-04-28 00:52:13 » |
|
In this email, I pull out some posts from The Well that I think shows
meme transmission in the way that I have been trying to create. Will
you please look at it and tell me if you see what I think I see?
Okay, so I think I successfully have a meme transmission that proves
the point I was trying to make. I'm only trying to make one point in
the world, so that we can move on.
Basically, I have been trying to get one really good meme transmission
going, a simple transfer of language, so that when it happened, I could
use it as an example to a group of people who would have enough
understanding to know what in the fuck I am trying to talk about.
Here goes:
Basically, I talked and talked and talked and talked and talked and
talked, and every once in awhile, I would mention that if the person
wanted me to stop talking, they could say "Peanut Butter", which is a
joke that the Nutbutter Party developed to say, "Ben, stop talking
about _____ for now". Peanut Butter is therefore a meme. It has been
encoded with information which means something within the local system
which it would not necessarily mean to outsiders.
Peanut Butter is that moment when your brain begins to hurt, so you
need to close down the conversation, or else get angry. When we need a
break from being hit with Too Much Information. In order to really get
through something, we have to think hard about it. So if we hit Peanut
Butter on a concept, that means that we are also going into Process
Crunch to deal with how much of it there is. This is the path to
resolving it fully. Through the Peanut Butter. Into density and
thoughts we do not want to think.
On The Well, I was having this discussion about talking, how I should
talk, etc, and one of the people posted this:
> If someone says something to me on the street, I react to those
> words but telling him/her the time, smiling, scowling, whatever.
> This is not big news.
>
> I get lots of information without content -- the deranged homeless
> guy muttering unintelligibly, snippets of music that I've never
> heard and will never hear again. These I take brief note of and
> then forget about. Occasionally a memory of such a thing will
> bubble up in memory, so I suppose it's become a part of me, but
> so is everything else I experience does the same, and the overwhelming
> majority of it is of little to no interest to me.
>
> Lots of organisms react to noise, and those with the ability to
> communicate will often attempt to dictate how and whether that noise
> is repeated. For an object lesson in this, walk into the Frisco
> Hell's Angels clubhouse in Dogpatch and create some noise along the
> lines of "only pussies ride Harleys. This is not a pipe!". Note
> how the intersting artistic reference gets filtered out as the organism
> reacts to the input that it finds more relevant. Afterward, stick
> around until they thank you for your experiment and tell you how
> instructive they found it.
>
> Really, a day outdoors in San Francisco or any other largish city
> should give you all the data you could hope for, and maybe you'll
> get some sun while you're at it.
And then, in response to something someone else said, they said:
> Mitsu makes some good points. And really, in my example uptopic,
> the Hell's Angels probably wouldn't be pissed off when they
> signed "peanut butter" with their pool cues. They'd merely be
> offering a dispassionate critique of your methodology, as
> efficiently and eloquently as possible so they could get back
> to working on their bikes in a timely manner.
>
> It would be a win-win as both sides could be confident that
> they'd zazzed in a most bleeding-edge fashion.
>
AND THERE IT IS! AN EXAMPLE!
If hit with a large quantity of ideas, we will begin to pick up the
language that those ideas are presented in order to work with the
concepts faster and shorter.
That means we pick up the frames, with the language. Change the
language, change the frames.
So if leftists start going onto boards of the right, to have a
conversation just a little less than an argument - framed instead as
'I'm just asking...", they will, over time, begin to adopt the language
of their conversation partners. This is how frames are transmitted, I
propose.
Please oh please - did you get that? It's all been for an example like
this, right here, that I scrambled my language.
Help?
:-b
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deadletter-j
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virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #28 on: 2005-04-28 00:54:31 » |
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I guess I am saying it is all about _change_. If I hear the way a
persons' speech/language patterns/body language/quantity or any such
data _change_, then I know something just happened in their thinking.
And the way in which we try to pressure each other into changing our
language is that entire field of 'meta-language', and that this is why
there is so MUCH of it. Because everybody is trying to write reality.
If we go in and trip people up on their words, it questions the very
frames the words came from.
That was the short version - did it get through?
Thanks for your help!
:-b
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