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Fritz
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The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« on: 2016-01-13 12:12:05 »
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Always enjoyable for me to see the cage rattled, even if to no avail. Article spotted by 'BL'.

Cheers

Fritz


Christianity: 12 Painful Facts



Source:Church and State
Author:  Michael Sherlock 
Date:  2015.10.18

Fact 1: The earliest official gospel (Mark) was written over a generation (40 years) after the alleged death of Jesus and subsequently, it fails the historical test of contemporaneity. (1)

Fact 2: Of the 662 verses in the Gospel of Matthew, 612 were plagiarised (copied) from the Gospel of Mark (or “Mark’s” source). (2)

Fact 3: The gospels were written by anonymous authors and later falsely attributed to authors who did not write them, nor were these anonymous authors eyewitnesses, with two of gospels, John (See John 21:24) and Luke, (See Luke 1:1-4) specifically stating that they were not eyewitnesses to Jesus. (3)

Fact 4: The gospels contain numerous forgeries, contradictions and errors. (4)

Fact 5: The four gospels were not selected as orthodox Scripture until 180 CE (approx.) (5)

Fact 6: There are no first century witnesses outside of the corrupt and biased gospels that attest to the earthly existence of Jesus Christ, but for a forged passage in the work of the Jewish Historian, Josephus (Testimonium Flavianum), and a second reference in that same compromised work, which is also suspect and in no way represents a specific reference to the Jesus of the gospels. (6)

Fact 7: Almost all of the myths and moral philosophies attributed to Jesus can be found in earlier mythologies and philosophies, held by people that were proximate to the lands in which the gospels first arose. (7)

Fact 8: Most of the earliest Christians believed that Jesus was either a phantom (non-human apparition), or a completely human Jewish rabbi. (

Fact 9: Christianity only rose to power due to its blatant disregard for its own Scripture – meaning, it aligned itself with a psychotic “pagan” emperor, Constantine, who boiled his wife in a hot tub, murdered his own son and executed his co-emperor, and he merely used Christianity to solidify his political ambitions (sole emperorship), evidenced by the fact that he continued to practice his pagan faith and mint his coins with Mithras (pagan sun-god), long after his alleged conversion. (9)

Fact 10: The sect of Christians that aligned themselves with Constantine became known as the Catholic (Universal) Church and their chief historian, Eusebius, re-wrote Christian history to present a false picture that favored his sect and made it look as if his group’s theology, found in the four official gospels, was always the dominant and original form, when such was not the case. (10)

Fact 11: For the majority of its history (4th Century – 19th Century), Christianity has been a violent religion, which, like a deadly virus, has taken over its hosts and killed in order to spread. (11)

Fact 12: When Christianity had temporal authority, it was just as brutal as Islam.  The only reason we see more psychotic behavior from religious nuts in Islamic countries today, versus Western countries, is because the West has become increasingly secularized. (12)

Sources

    Paul. J. Achtemeier. Harper-Collins Bible Dictionary Revised Edition. Harper Collins (1989), p. 653; John Barton and John Muddiman. The Oxford Bible Commentary. Oxford University Press (2001), p. 886.
    Graham N. Stanton. The Gospels and Jesus. Oxford University Press (1989), pp. 63-64.
    Bart D. Ehrman. Jesus Interrupted. Harper Collins Publishers (2005), p. 111.
    Re: Story of woman taken in adultery in “John’s” Gospel; Paul. J. Achtemeier. Harper-Collins Bible Dictionary Revised Edition. Harper Collins (1989), p. 535; Re: Final 12 verses of “Mark”; Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament. Stuttgart (1971), pp. 122-126. There are other examples.
    Bart D. Ehrman. Jesus Interrupted. Harper Collins Publishers (2005), p. 111.
    Re: No first century witnesses to earthly Jesus; Bart D. Ehrman, Jesus Interrupted. HarperCollins (2009), p. 158; Re: Josephus forgeries; John E. Remsburg. The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidences of His Existence. The Truth Seeker Company (1909), pp. 32-35.
    Joseph McCabe. Sources of Morality in the Gospels. Watts & Co. (1914). McCabe compiled many of the primary source pre-Christian references to the sources of Jesus’ alleged revelations, so you can go to those works and read them for yourself.
    Bart Ehrman. Lost Christianities. Oxford University Press (2003); Earl Doherty. The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus. Age of Reason Publications (2005).
    Helen Ellebre, The Dark Side of Christian History. Morningstar Books (1995); Phillip Schaff. History of the Christian Church, Volume 5: The Middle Ages. A.D. 1049-1294. Christian Classics Ethereal Library (1882), p. 322; J.N. Hillgarth, The Conversion of Western Europe. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall (1969), p. 46; Frank Viola & George Barna. Pagan Christianity. Tyndale House Publishers (2008).
    Bart Ehrman. Lost Christianities. Oxford University Press (2003); Joseph Wheless. Forgery in Christianity. Psychiana (1930); Bart D. Ehrman. Jesus, Interrupted. New York: HarperCollins (2009), p. 214.
    Helen Ellebre, The Dark Side of Christian History. Morningstar Books (1995); Rev. J.E. Riddle. The History of the Papacy, to the Reformation (Multiple volume series); Edward Gibbon. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (multiple volume series).
    Joseph McCabe. A History of the Popes. Watts and Co. (1939); Rev. Horace K. Mann. The Lives of the Popes in the Early Middle Ages. Vol. 4. Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, & Co. Ltd. (1910); Rev. J.E. Riddle. The History of the Papacy, to the Reformation. Vol. 2. Richard Bentley (1854); Helen Ellebre, The Dark Side of Christian History. Morningstar Books (1995); John N.D. Kelly. The Oxford Dictionary of Popes. Oxford University Press (2005); Archibald Bower. The History of the Popes. Griffith and Simon (1845); Johannes Janssen. The History of the German People at the Close of the Middle Ages. Vol. 10. Trans. A.M Christie; Kegan Paul. Trench. Trubner & Co. Ltd. (1906); Preserved Smith, PHD. History of Christian Theophagy. The Open Court Publishing Co. (1922); Jeremy Collier, M.A. An Ecclesiastical History of Great Britain. Vol. 6. William Straker (1811); Carl Theophilus Odhner. Michael Servetus: His Life and Teachings. J.B. Lippincott Company (1910); R. Willis, M.D. Servetus and Calvin: A Study of an Important Epoch in the History of the Reformation. Henry S. King and Co. (1877); Sam Harris. The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason. W.W. Norton, New York (2005).

Michael Sherlock is an atheist author, presently studying a master’s degree in Arts, majoring in Studies in Religion, at the University of New England.

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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #1 on: 2016-01-21 00:02:35 »
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Hi..I am popping in here after a very long time.(Hello, all)

I think the time has come to ask where religion begins and where 'culture' blends in...I think religion is an enabler to a greater evil. and it is human nature. we might be barking at the wrong tree afterall..

after many many years here in (and away from) the virian sphere, i have changed my position slightly. i dont see religion or faith as a problem anymore. a lot of it is philosophy..a lot of twaddle..a *lot* of mythology. so what? it seems to me that we have been assessing things with a wrong measure afterall.

i wonder if the singularity/friendly AI congregation is still around(Eli Yudowsky et al and the life extension folks). I am very curious if they did indeed figure out the parameters for a friendly AI.

raging against religion is a waste of time and pointless distraction, imo.

time for a virian pivot?

anyways, that's all. how is everyone?
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #2 on: 2016-01-24 15:17:55 »
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Wow Mermaid; nice. A monicker I have seen many times in the hallowed halls of CoV.

Your an idea is one I've have been trying to articulate, in that Religion seems to me to have become part of the Marketing strategy of many a Politic and Power grab, often not even Faith held by the Marketing folks using it but useful in co opting the inculcated sheep to do their bidding and so it goes. As such a manipulative tool yet somehow Faith still remains central to the co-opting's power, so how do we dislodge the power of Faith. Education and tools to think, Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking by Daniel C. Dennett , sheds some light on the education needed.

Cheers Fritz

Are Religions any different in the final analysis ?

Slogans for Coca-Cola From 1886 to 2006;

1886 - Drink Coca-Cola
1904 - Delicious and Refreshing
1905 - Coca-Cola Revives and Sustains
1906 - The Great National Temperance Beverage
1917 - Three Million a Day
1922 - Thirst Knows No Season
1923 - Enjoy Thirst
1924 - Refresh Yourself
1925 - Six Million a Day
1926 - It Had to Be Good to Get Where It Is
1927 - Pure as Sunlight
1927 - Around the Corner from Everywhere
1929 - The Pause that Refreshes
1932 - Ice Cold Sunshine
1938 - The Best Friend Thirst Ever Had
1939 - Thirst Asks Nothing More
1939 - Whoever You Are, Whatever You Do, Wherever You May Be, When You Think of Refreshment Think of Ice Cold Coca-Cola
1942 - The Only Thing Like Coca-Cola is Coca-Cola Itself
1948 - Where There's Coke There's Hospitality
1949 - Along the Highway to Anywhere
1952 - What You Want is a Coke
1956 - Coca-Cola... Makes Good Things Taste Better
1957 - Sign of Good Taste
1958 - The Cold, Crisp Taste of Coke
1959 - Be Really Refreshed
1963 - Things Go Better with Coke
1969 - It's the Real Thing
1971 - I'd Like to Buy the World a Coke (part of the "It's the Real Thing" campaign)
1975 - Look Up America
1976 - Coke Adds Life
1979 - Have a Coke and a Smile
1982 - Coke Is It!
1985 - We've Got a Taste for You (for both Coca-Cola & Coca-Cola classic)
1985 - America's Real Choice (for both Coca-Cola & Coca-Cola classic)
1986 - Red, White & You (for Coca-Cola classic)
1986 - Catch the Wave (for Coca-Cola)
1987 - When Coca-Cola is a Part of Your Life, You Can't Beat the Feeling
1988 - You Can't Beat the Feeling
1989 - Official Soft Drink of Summer
1990 - You Can't Beat the Real Thing
1993 - Always Coca-Cola
2000 - Coca-Cola. Enjoy
2001 - Life Tastes Good
2003 - Coca-Cola... Real
2005 - Make It Real
2006 - The Coke Side of Life
2009 - Open Happiness
http://www.coca-colacompany.com/stories/coke-lore-slogans/
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #3 on: 2016-01-25 15:21:50 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2016-01-21 00:02:35   

Hi..I am popping in here after a very long time.(Hello, all)

I think the time has come to ask where religion begins and where 'culture' blends in...I think religion is an enabler to a greater evil. and it is human nature. we might be barking at the wrong tree afterall..

after many many years here in (and away from) the virian sphere, i have changed my position slightly. i dont see religion or faith as a problem anymore. a lot of it is philosophy..a lot of twaddle..a *lot* of mythology. so what? it seems to me that we have been assessing things with a wrong measure afterall.

i wonder if the singularity/friendly AI congregation is still around(Eli Yudowsky et al and the life extension folks). I am very curious if they did indeed figure out the parameters for a friendly AI.

raging against religion is a waste of time and pointless distraction, imo.

time for a virian pivot?

anyways, that's all. how is everyone?

Welcome back, Mermaid!

As for friendly AI, Yudkowsky and folks at MIRI have made some incremental progress but nothing really noticeable. The latest is Bostrom's book >> http://www.amazon.com/Superintelligence-Dangers-Strategies-Nick-Bostrom/dp/0199678111 which raises awareness more than anything. I believe it was instrumental in getting a new org funded by Elon Musk et al... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAI

I agree raging against religion isn't very useful, but I don't see much of that going on here. I think we generally treat it like LARPing or group masturbation, no one cares what you do in private settings, just keep it out of the public sphere and don't expect us to buy into your nonsense.

I do believe faith is still a big problem for the reasons Fritz mentioned. Crazy people aren't very dangerous until they get a lot of faith-based followers.



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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #4 on: 2016-01-26 00:44:43 »
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Hi Fritz. I have followed some of your posts here. I really appreciate some of them.

Over the years, I have developed a more philosophical attitude towards 'faith'.(not necessarily religious faith) It can certainly have it's uses. I have too become increasingly disenchanted in dissecting the various good book(s) of various religions because it is entirely a useless exercise.

i completely disagree that 'faith' must be dislodged. it exists because it feeds something for the human species to survive and/or thrive. animals are not born with (religious)faith and they do not develop (religious)faith. we are not born with (religious)faith, but we adopt it.

pulling this string a little more...how would you define a non-human animal's 'fatih'? when birds migrate..when bears hibernate..when a stray cat comes to the same backyard for kibble at the same time every day.. they look to a different 'god' or 'faith' because it aids their survival and hence keeping them fit enough to live another day to procreate to ensure perpetuation of their species.

religions go beyond that...they offer 'immortality of the soul'. and this is attractive. you can't dislodge religious faith(and its evils) without replacing the promise of immortality with something equal or better.

as a species, we are doomed. we have evolved for all the wrong reasons. and we are at the end of the road. it's a brick wall in front of us now. without 'magical thinking' or 'faith' or 'irrationality', life will become bleak as those without it will deem it depressingly finite. i dont think we are evolved enough to accept mortality or the finiteness of existence...with or without a physical form.

thoughts?






Quote from: Fritz on 2016-01-24 15:17:55   

Wow Mermaid; nice. A monicker I have seen many times in the hallowed halls of CoV.

Your an idea is one I've have been trying to articulate, in that Religion seems to me to have become part of the Marketing strategy of many a Politic and Power grab, often not even Faith held by the Marketing folks using it but useful in co opting the inculcated sheep to do their bidding and so it goes. As such a manipulative tool yet somehow Faith still remains central to the co-opting's power, so how do we dislodge the power of Faith. Education and tools to think, Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking by Daniel C. Dennett , sheds some light on the education needed.

Cheers Fritz

Are Religions any different in the final analysis ?

Slogans for Coca-Cola From 1886 to 2006;

1886 - Drink Coca-Cola
1904 - Delicious and Refreshing
1905 - Coca-Cola Revives and Sustains
1906 - The Great National Temperance Beverage
1917 - Three Million a Day
1922 - Thirst Knows No Season
1923 - Enjoy Thirst
1924 - Refresh Yourself
1925 - Six Million a Day
1926 - It Had to Be Good to Get Where It Is
1927 - Pure as Sunlight
1927 - Around the Corner from Everywhere
1929 - The Pause that Refreshes
1932 - Ice Cold Sunshine
1938 - The Best Friend Thirst Ever Had
1939 - Thirst Asks Nothing More
1939 - Whoever You Are, Whatever You Do, Wherever You May Be, When You Think of Refreshment Think of Ice Cold Coca-Cola
1942 - The Only Thing Like Coca-Cola is Coca-Cola Itself
1948 - Where There's Coke There's Hospitality
1949 - Along the Highway to Anywhere
1952 - What You Want is a Coke
1956 - Coca-Cola... Makes Good Things Taste Better
1957 - Sign of Good Taste
1958 - The Cold, Crisp Taste of Coke
1959 - Be Really Refreshed
1963 - Things Go Better with Coke
1969 - It's the Real Thing
1971 - I'd Like to Buy the World a Coke (part of the "It's the Real Thing" campaign)
1975 - Look Up America
1976 - Coke Adds Life
1979 - Have a Coke and a Smile
1982 - Coke Is It!
1985 - We've Got a Taste for You (for both Coca-Cola & Coca-Cola classic)
1985 - America's Real Choice (for both Coca-Cola & Coca-Cola classic)
1986 - Red, White & You (for Coca-Cola classic)
1986 - Catch the Wave (for Coca-Cola)
1987 - When Coca-Cola is a Part of Your Life, You Can't Beat the Feeling
1988 - You Can't Beat the Feeling
1989 - Official Soft Drink of Summer
1990 - You Can't Beat the Real Thing
1993 - Always Coca-Cola
2000 - Coca-Cola. Enjoy
2001 - Life Tastes Good
2003 - Coca-Cola... Real
2005 - Make It Real
2006 - The Coke Side of Life
2009 - Open Happiness
http://www.coca-colacompany.com/stories/coke-lore-slogans/

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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #5 on: 2016-01-26 00:52:31 »
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would be nice if we can have chat room sessions like during the IRC days. i remember some of the #immortal and #singularity discussions with fondness. and #virus discussions too. i have been thinking about those guys a lot lately...also...just heard that marvin minsky died. gah.

would you be interested in kickstarting CoV again, but in a different direction and format. I would like to propose a short story contest. to kick around to see who is still alive and who is lurking.. 1000-1200 words maybe with a virian vision(as members understand it). or a virian world with role playing or gamification. i have been a virian..for how long..15 years now? we are certainly connected online in vastly different ways now than pre-2005. my first javien(?) interactions were over a dial-up connection!!..can you imagine...haha!

Quote from: David Lucifer on 2016-01-25 15:21:50   
[...]
« Last Edit: 2016-01-26 00:53:01 by Mermaid » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #6 on: 2016-02-08 23:12:36 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2016-01-26 00:44:43   

Hi Fritz. I have followed some of your posts here. I really appreciate some of them.

<snip>as a species, we are doomed. we have evolved for all the wrong reasons. and we are at the end of the road. it's a brick wall in front of us now. without 'magical thinking' or 'faith' or 'irrationality', life will become bleak as those without it will deem it depressingly finite. i dont think we are evolved enough to accept mortality or the finiteness of existence...with or without a physical form.

thoughts?

I wonder if Faith can be viewed as a threshold or boundary problem as Belief is weaponized. Also I am trying to use Belief as the tool to stop gap knowledge when understanding is limited by experience. I agree with you that we are not born with faith and that it is socialized. The problem for me is too what end and who Faith is co-opted by. Belief and Myths are important and useful tools we need to survive and I think there is sufficient evidence our brains are wired for Belief other wise we would be immobilized by fear and uncertainty. Hope and Caring I think are realized through Belief since neither are a certainty, yet if a child is not afforded same measure of them I do not think Hope and Caring will be available as a tool for them to move through life and the stage is set to weapons Belief through the doctrine of Faith.

All this opining on my part to draw my distinction between the human Tool of Belief to deal with uncertainty and the unknown, setting Belief apart from the Sin of Faith (as we have coined it a CoV). Faith is the capturing of the human belief mechanism , distorting and clubbing into a form that our tool of Belief is now used against us by those that wish to control. It is at the root of tyranny and power over societies and it is cleverly inculcated in our social rituals. To get back to enabling and using Belief as part of our scientific tools for mental agility and survival will require a big change in how we teach our children to think and accept what they can't know as useful as well.

Cheers

Fritz
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #7 on: 2016-02-09 10:40:52 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2016-01-26 00:52:31   

would be nice if we can have chat room sessions like during the IRC days. i remember some of the #immortal and #singularity discussions with fondness. and #virus discussions too. i have been thinking about those guys a lot lately...

You are welcome to join us any time on #virus at irc.lucifer.com. It is usually just me and Sat hanging out.


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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #8 on: 2016-02-09 10:47:35 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2016-01-26 00:44:43   
Hi Fritz. I have followed some of your posts here. I really appreciate some of them.

Over the years, I have developed a more philosophical attitude towards 'faith'.(not necessarily religious faith) It can certainly have it's uses. I have too become increasingly disenchanted in dissecting the various good book(s) of various religions because it is entirely a useless exercise.

i completely disagree that 'faith' must be dislodged. it exists because it feeds something for the human species to survive and/or thrive. animals are not born with (religious)faith and they do not develop (religious)faith. we are not born with (religious)faith, but we adopt it.


We're likely operating with different definitions of faith then. I'll offer mine. Faith is epistemological error. All beliefs have a confidence measure usually expressed in terms of probability or plausibility, e.g. I'm 99.9% confident that no gods exist (as commonly defined in human cultures). Equivalently I'm 0.01% confident that gods do exist. Ideally the confidence is based on evidence using Bayesian probability (see E. T. Jayne's epic Probability Theory for details). Faith then is the difference between actual confidence and ideal Bayesian confidence. Defined this way it is always an error.

How do you define faith?
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #9 on: 2016-02-11 22:27:53 »
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2016-02-09 10:47:35   


We're likely operating with different definitions of faith then. I'll offer mine. Faith is epistemological error. All beliefs have a confidence measure usually expressed in terms of probability or plausibility, e.g. I'm 99.9% confident that no gods exist (as commonly defined in human cultures). Equivalently I'm 0.01% confident that gods do exist. Ideally the confidence is based on evidence using Bayesian probability (see E. T. Jayne's epic Probability Theory for details). Faith then is the difference between actual confidence and ideal Bayesian confidence. Defined this way it is always an error.

How do you define faith?

Interesting and you are using skills to explain yourself I have long ago let atrophy.

I 'believe' I diverge from your take in that:

Faith is a non rational absolute without confidence limits in that it is a given to be taken as read, hence it's omnipotent danger and disassociate power. We stop thinking, there is no need.

Believe which I think is of value because it has degrees of acceptance and can be tested and subscribed to if it remains useful to help us.
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #10 on: 2016-02-13 01:58:43 »
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and none of these definitions are useful. in the 'real world'.
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #11 on: 2016-02-14 12:50:39 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2016-02-13 01:58:43   

and none of these definitions are useful. in the 'real world'.

QED
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #12 on: 2016-02-15 00:00:31 »
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well..let's take a diversion.

can a placebo be medicine?


Quote from: David Lucifer on 2016-02-14 12:50:39   


Quote from: Mermaid on 2016-02-13 01:58:43   

and none of these definitions are useful. in the 'real world'.

QED

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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #13 on: 2016-02-15 15:24:26 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2016-02-15 00:00:31   

well..let's take a diversion.

can a placebo be medicine?

Absolutely, the placebo effect has been demonstrated in double-blind trials iirc. With the caveat that the patient must not know it is a placebo they are taking, right?
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Re:The Good Book ; Pious you say.
« Reply #14 on: 2016-02-18 00:15:05 »
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Belief: = Mutable: Can only be applied to non-static and non-const data members of a class. If a data member is declared mutable, then it is legal to assign a value to this data member.

Faith: = Immutable: If a data member is declared immutables it is an object whose state cannot be modified after it is created
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