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hkhenson@rogers...
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virus: Memetics or EP?
« on: 2005-04-10 17:35:33 » |
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At 10:54 AM 10/04/05 +0200, Blunderov wrote:
snip
> Here is a very big problem which I think would
>fit the bill.
><snip>
>"A philosophical perspective of 9/11" Angelica Nuzzo:
>
>"As the target of this new type of war, terrorism must be defined as
>"absolute evil," must be located beyond and without all legal
>jurisdiction, all international order - indeed, without any order as
>such.... "
>
> ..."The Bush administration had to construe 9/11 as uncaused, original
>evil, because 9/11 had to become the absolute ground of all responses
>that would follow. This ground could not be presented, in turn, as the
>effect of a determinate cause that one could investigate, nor could it
>be the deed of a rational agent who acted from comprehensible motives
>(albeit wrong or illegitimate ones) and who in consequence could be
>prosecuted. The definition of evil as the ungrounded original evil is
>from the outset a form of political expediency."
>"Thus, terrorism is construed...as a phenomenon lying outside and beyond
>any law - civil law as well as moral law, international law, the law of
>peace, as well as the law of war." </snip>
>
>[Blunderov] This is such a big problem that it has become, by concensus,
>"off topic" at Virus due to the high potential for schism that it has
>engendered in the past. And we are not alone in this; when I last
>looked, even the Wikipedia had not advanced beyond first base and was
>mired in acrimony about the very definition of terrorism. But it
>('terrorism') is, in my view anyway, THE central memetic issue at the
>moment. All of which is a bit awkward.
>
>Perhaps we could form a (Virus sanctioned?) special task group of the
>like-minded in order to investigate this subject. Or use someone's blog
>as a venue? Or?
>
>It seems to me that this is a memetic issue which is likely to have
>profound real-world effects one way or the other. My own view is that,
>until it is generally understood that classifying methods of struggle*
>as "moral" or "immoral" is a cynical device of the few to manipulate the
>many, we will continue to be led by our noses.
I am sorry to say that memetics is not the right tool for the job. This is
coming from a person whose status depends to a considerable degree on work
in memetics now dating back over 20 years.
What is needed is evolutionary psychology.
Many of us overrated memes as being causal to wars and related social
disruptions. They do play a role in the causal *chain* leading to war
and/or terrorism but as members of interchangeable class. They are not at
the origin of the chain.
The ultimate cause of "uncaused" wars and terrorism is rooted in the
problems of any species that escapes its predators. Without predation,
animals always over exploit their environment. This is true of chimps as
well as humans. By taking to the trees to sleep and staying in groups
during the day, very few chimps get eaten by leopards.
So chimp populations are limited by violence--sometimes total
genocide--between groups. (Bumper sticker: Be Your Own Predator!)
For this to be stable, there has to be feedback making violence between
chimp groups more likely as the population rises or the food supply
falls. I do not know what it is that turns on chimpanzee genocides, though
this would be an important question to ask.
Humans have an evolved behavioral switch that is activated by the
anticipation of coming hard times. The link through memes is that the
switch turns up the gain of circulating xenophobic memes. In the
environment of evolutionary adaptiveness, the circulating memes
synchronized a tribe's warriors to a do or die attack on a neighboring tribe.
In a situation where the tribe members would all starve without taking over
a neighbor's territory, the genes of the warriors were better off *even if
the warriors lost and were all killed.* The reason is that their genes
were also present in the female children which were normally booty to the
winning tribe. (You need to understand Hamilton's inclusive fitness for
this to make sense.)
If you wonder why humans seem to have rather flexible morals, it is part
and parcel of our evolutionary heritage. Morals *are* situational. If you
want peace rather than wars and terrorism, all human populations need to be
looking at an improving future (or at least not a bleak one).
[A question for the class to consider is why some parts of the world are
much more stable than others.? As a specific case, give an EP account for
why population support for the IRA faded out? Date (+-5 years) the origin
of the proximate cause.]
As an analogy, removing a lug nut from a wheel with sticks and rocks would
be an awful job. But it becomes a simple task with an air wrench. So it
is with understanding wars and terrorism with EP instead of memetics.
Unfortunately, the understanding that emerges is extremely
depressing. Because it uses the E word, it can't even be comprehended by
the rising political forces in the US.
Keith Henson
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Memetics or EP?
« Reply #1 on: 2005-04-11 18:23:03 » |
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[Blunderov] I take your point. And I cannot but defer to your experience
and knowledge. Nevertheless it is, for me, an existential necessity to
believe that reason (Or memetics. Or science. Or whatever.) can make a
difference to the outcome of the struggle. The alternative is the bleak
prospect of reconciling myself to being no more than a fruit-fly in a
bell jar. Which may very well be true, but whilst I can't quite agree
with Kierkegaard that it would have been necessary to invent God if he
hadn't already existed, I will say, and somewhat to my chagrin, that it
is necessary for my own peace of mind to make this leap of faith.
(1-0 to Erik I think?)
Best Regards.
Keith Henson
Sent: 10 April 2005 11:36 PM
I am sorry to say that memetics is not the right tool for the job. This
is
coming from a person whose status depends to a considerable degree on
work
in memetics now dating back over 20 years.
What is needed is evolutionary psychology.
Many of us overrated memes as being causal to wars and related social
disruptions. They do play a role in the causal *chain* leading to war
and/or terrorism but as members of interchangeable class. They are not
at
the origin of the chain.
The ultimate cause of "uncaused" wars and terrorism is rooted in the
problems of any species that escapes its predators. Without predation,
animals always over exploit their environment. This is true of chimps
as
well as humans. By taking to the trees to sleep and staying in groups
during the day, very few chimps get eaten by leopards.
So chimp populations are limited by violence--sometimes total
genocide--between groups. (Bumper sticker: Be Your Own Predator!)
For this to be stable, there has to be feedback making violence between
chimp groups more likely as the population rises or the food supply
falls. I do not know what it is that turns on chimpanzee genocides,
though
this would be an important question to ask.
Humans have an evolved behavioral switch that is activated by the
anticipation of coming hard times. The link through memes is that the
switch turns up the gain of circulating xenophobic memes. In the
environment of evolutionary adaptiveness, the circulating memes
synchronized a tribe's warriors to a do or die attack on a neighboring
tribe.
In a situation where the tribe members would all starve without taking
over
a neighbor's territory, the genes of the warriors were better off *even
if
the warriors lost and were all killed.* The reason is that their genes
were also present in the female children which were normally booty to
the
winning tribe. (You need to understand Hamilton's inclusive fitness for
this to make sense.)
If you wonder why humans seem to have rather flexible morals, it is part
and parcel of our evolutionary heritage. Morals *are* situational. If
you
want peace rather than wars and terrorism, all human populations need to
be
looking at an improving future (or at least not a bleak one).
[A question for the class to consider is why some parts of the world are
much more stable than others.? As a specific case, give an EP account
for
why population support for the IRA faded out? Date (+-5 years) the
origin
of the proximate cause.]
As an analogy, removing a lug nut from a wheel with sticks and rocks
would
be an awful job. But it becomes a simple task with an air wrench. So
it
is with understanding wars and terrorism with EP instead of memetics.
Unfortunately, the understanding that emerges is extremely
depressing. Because it uses the E word, it can't even be comprehended
by
the rising political forces in the US.
Keith Henson
---
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<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Reputation: 7.36
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RE: virus: Memetics or EP?
« Reply #2 on: 2005-04-11 19:46:41 » |
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At 12:23 AM 12/04/05 +0200, you wrote:
>[Blunderov] I take your point. And I cannot but defer to your experience
>and knowledge.
Look folks, I *appreciate* people replying to my postings where they don't
agree or think I have been unclear. I won't bite your head off if you
reply, it's the way people improve arguments for some point.
>Nevertheless it is, for me, an existential necessity to
>believe that reason (Or memetics. Or science. Or whatever.) can make a
>difference to the outcome of the struggle.
It definitely *could.* The solution has to start with people, at least
leaders, understanding the problem, and sadly the problem takes decades to
fix because it is rooted in more people than the economy/ecosystem can support.
>The alternative is the bleak
>prospect of reconciling myself to being no more than a fruit-fly in a
>bell jar.
Right. For example, bleak future prospects make it much more likely that a
population is going to support going to war. If you don't want wars, then
you have to create a world where people feel the future prospects are
improving. That leads to *specific* proposals, such as strong support of
birth control.
>Which may very well be true, but whilst I can't quite agree
>with Kierkegaard that it would have been necessary to invent God if he
>hadn't already existed, I will say, and somewhat to my chagrin, that it
>is necessary for my own peace of mind to make this leap of faith.
Nobody took up the questions:
"A question for the class to consider is why some parts of the world are
much more stable than others.? As a specific case, give an EP account
for why population support for the IRA faded out? Date (+-5 years) the
origin of the proximate cause."
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=951
Keith Henson
>(1-0 to Erik I think?)
>
>Best Regards.
>
>Keith Henson
>Sent: 10 April 2005 11:36 PM
>
>I am sorry to say that memetics is not the right tool for the job. This
>is
>coming from a person whose status depends to a considerable degree on
>work
>in memetics now dating back over 20 years.
>
>What is needed is evolutionary psychology.
>
>Many of us overrated memes as being causal to wars and related social
>disruptions. They do play a role in the causal *chain* leading to war
>and/or terrorism but as members of interchangeable class. They are not
>at
>the origin of the chain.
>
>The ultimate cause of "uncaused" wars and terrorism is rooted in the
>problems of any species that escapes its predators. Without predation,
>animals always over exploit their environment. This is true of chimps
>as
>well as humans. By taking to the trees to sleep and staying in groups
>during the day, very few chimps get eaten by leopards.
>
>So chimp populations are limited by violence--sometimes total
>genocide--between groups. (Bumper sticker: Be Your Own Predator!)
>
>For this to be stable, there has to be feedback making violence between
>chimp groups more likely as the population rises or the food supply
>falls. I do not know what it is that turns on chimpanzee genocides,
>though
>this would be an important question to ask.
>
>Humans have an evolved behavioral switch that is activated by the
>anticipation of coming hard times. The link through memes is that the
>switch turns up the gain of circulating xenophobic memes. In the
>environment of evolutionary adaptiveness, the circulating memes
>synchronized a tribe's warriors to a do or die attack on a neighboring
>tribe.
>
>In a situation where the tribe members would all starve without taking
>over
>a neighbor's territory, the genes of the warriors were better off *even
>if
>the warriors lost and were all killed.* The reason is that their genes
>were also present in the female children which were normally booty to
>the
>winning tribe. (You need to understand Hamilton's inclusive fitness for
>
>this to make sense.)
>
>If you wonder why humans seem to have rather flexible morals, it is part
>
>and parcel of our evolutionary heritage. Morals *are* situational. If
>you
>want peace rather than wars and terrorism, all human populations need to
>be
>looking at an improving future (or at least not a bleak one).
>
>[A question for the class to consider is why some parts of the world are
>
>much more stable than others.? As a specific case, give an EP account
>for
>why population support for the IRA faded out? Date (+-5 years) the
>origin
>of the proximate cause.]
>
>As an analogy, removing a lug nut from a wheel with sticks and rocks
>would
>be an awful job. But it becomes a simple task with an air wrench. So
>it
>is with understanding wars and terrorism with EP instead of memetics.
>
>Unfortunately, the understanding that emerges is extremely
>depressing. Because it uses the E word, it can't even be comprehended
>by
>the rising political forces in the US.
>
>Keith Henson
>
>---
>To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
><http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
>
>---
>To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
><http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
---
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