From: Mermaid . (britannica@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Jan 04 2002 - 12:18:01 MST
[Hermit]Mermaid referenced the VedicMaths site - presumably to support this
brain-damaged assertion.
[Mermaid]Wrongo, boyo! I dont buy into the code making or the code breaking
or whatever. It is not my area of expertise. I just retrieved it since both
of you seem to be balling and stroking each other without digging up the
said sloka. Did I spoil it for you by picking out the url and the resources?
[Mermaid]I do not know about it. I am not an expert on the subject. I have
no interest in the subject. I am not qualified to discuss it, so I am not
reading the rest of the mail. If you had made any more references to me
after this initial mention and if you want to me to respond, please bring it
to my notice.
[Mermaid]However, I have enormous problems with a lot of what you said in
your obvious overenthusiasm to flick the Vedas. I *do* believe that the
Vedas are an incredible body of work. I have, over time, learned to filter
what appeals to me from what disgusts me in order to appreciate the better
things in life. I also think the Koran is sheer poetry. I also love reading
Bible stories. With a little editing, I think it is great entertainment.
[Mermaid]So, what are my issues? Various snippets below..
[Hermit]The "golden age" of Indian mathematics occurred 3000 years later,
between approximately 800 CE and 1500 CE and has been extensively analyzed
(by real mathematicians, as opposed to mystics with fake or spurious
credentials) in the past 25 years.
[Hermit]I suspect that your eagerness is misplaced. Science, is a method. It
can only be followed, or not followed, and takes no qualification. "Holy
science" is by definition, wholly self-contradictory (that which is accepted
by faith cannot be falsified) - and while ancient astronomy, as an adjunct
to astrology, is sometimes interesting as it throws light on ancient society
or to provide dating references, almost all of it is useless except to those
attempting to understand more primitive societies - and then they had best
be researching in the original language or it is likely they will eventually
discover that their sources are compromised - as, it seems to me, are yours.
[Hermit] I observed on them within quotations - for a reason. The ancient
"Indian Mathematicians" were not primarily mathematicians, but priests. And
their output was tainted and limited by this. Unlike the Greeks, who refused
to accept "because the gods said so" as a reason and investigated the
"mathematics of the imaginary," the Harrapans and Vedics - like the
Sumerians and Egyptians before them, ceased investigation once they had
solved the concrete problems they needed to address - like how to build a
circular altar. e.g. "The Sulbasutras are<snip>
[Hermit] It is not prejudice that prevents ancient "Indian mathematicians"
from being credited with significant discoveries, but rather the fact that
there were no significant Indian mathematicians or discoveries that we know
of until much later. Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the Indian
mathematicians are frequently credited with simplifying the Sumerians
positional base 60 system to base 10, sometime when the Vedas were first
being chanted (although, of course, this is not as significant as the
earlier Sumerian development of this system). Does this show prejudice - if
so, it seems to be in favor of the Indians and against the Sumerians?
[Mermaid]blah...blah..blah...
[Mermaid]You are so far beyond BULLSHIT, that it is futile to carry on a
discussion with you. Because I cannot fathom why you would stubbornly stick
to belittling everything that occured 25 years before and inaccurately
associating everything you stumble upon to the Maharishi, I have to come to
the conclusion that it is something over and above my ability to drill a
hole in your head and dump some real knowledge.
[Mermaid]For ANYONE who wishes to learn anything about Indian Mathematics,
http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Indexes/Indians.html
This is the first one that turned up on a search and I am sure libraries are
stacked with information and so are the cyber information sources.
The same source has other interesting links about the history of
Mathematics. I am looking forward to getting lost in there. I know I will be
busy for several days.
http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Indexes/HistoryTopics.html
Another simplified index
http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Indexes/Hist_Topics_alph.html
However, I feel obliged to say a few words...especially about your
statement, "I observed on them within quotations - for a reason. The ancient
"Indian Mathematicians" were not primarily mathematicians, but priests. And
their output was tainted and limited by this."
Panini, the mathematician and linguist is supposed to have been around from
520-460.B.C. He is credited for the enormous strides he took to polish
Sanskrit. He was a Sanskrit linguist who laid the foundation for 'vedic
mathematics'.
What he basically did was this...he systemised all of Sanskrit grammar in
under 4000 sutras. In his treatise, Ashtadhyayi, he gives birth to over 1700
basic elements like nouns, verbs, vowels, consonants and divides them into
classes. Then he proceeds to frame the rules for the construction of
sentences, compound nouns and gives the basic structural framework and
foundation for a language. While in ancient Greece, mathematics grew as a
branch of philosophy...in India...mathematics grew from language. It is
impossible to seperate
language from the ancient mathematics of India and in that it is easy to see
why it is 'vedic mathematics' because the vedas were indeed written and
communicated in the language of Sanskrit. Greek mathematical sciences
concentrated on mensuration and geometry. India transcended these concepts
quite early and devised a very rudimentary form of algebra. This was largely
due to the algebraic nature of Indian mathematics arising as a consequence
of the structure of the Sanskrit language.
Numbers were represented as words and eventually this led to the development
of the modern number systems in India. Ancient mathematics cannot be
anything but Vedic mathematics. The bond between the Vedas and Mathmetics
occurs because of Sanskrit, the language of the Vedas and not because of the
religious nature of the Vedas.
So, they were using numerals in notation not unlike that of the Romans,
Greeks, Hebrews with seperate symbols for 10s and 100s. The earliest
inscription recording the date by a system of nine digits and a zero with
place notation for 10s and 100s comes from Gujarat, India, and is dated
595.A.D.<Epigraphia Indica..ii..20> This spread to Syria and then all around
the world. This was not a new system. Who simplified the system of writing
numerals..we will never know. The anonymous work of Bakshali Manuscript and
Aryabhatta pre supposes this knowledge. Aryabhatta, btw, gave the usual
modern approximation of 3.1416 which was much more accurate than the value
given by the Greeks at that time. This was in the 5th century...much before
your 'golden age of ancient indian mathematics'. The implications of zero
and infinity and its incorporated in Indian philosophy is interesting. The
entire spiritual philosophy of Hinduism as communicated in the Upanishads is
based on the concept of infinity. The infinite nature of the universal
consciousness. There can be only one. All is Brahman.
Refinements were made in trignometry, calculus and spherical geometry to
study astronomy and astrology. The decimal system was developed and then
spread first east when the Arabs conquered Sind in 8th century and then
elsewhere. The brilliance of Varahamihira who in his book, Brihatsamiti,
tries to illustrate the effect of certain 'omens' created by the changes in
seasons, night skies and movement of stars does not diminish because he was
from the priest class. The Indian calender predicts eclipses of the sun and
the moon and is used even today. <if anyone wants a new hobby..try studying
the Indian calender and the Mayan calender.> Even before Galileo was born,
Indian astromers, thousands of years earlier surmised that the moon reflects
the sun's light and doesnt have any light on its own. All of this is vedic
mathematics because it was incorporated in the vedas and presented in the
language of the vedas, Sanskrit. I am tired and I almost forgot that all of
this is only a play to prove that you are always "right". Have a ball.
Only, next time...dont assume anything about me or for me. It makes me very
cross.
A thought:
<begin quote>
The first sign that the Indian numerals were moving west comes from a source
which predates the rise of the Arab nations. In 662 AD Severus Sebokht, a
Nestorian bishop who lived in Keneshra on the Euphrates river, wrote:-
I will omit all discussion of the science of the Indians, ... , of their
subtle discoveries in astronomy, discoveries that are more ingenious than
those of the Greeks and the Babylonians, and of their valuable methods of
calculation which surpass description. I wish only to say that this
computation is done by means of nine signs. If those who believe, because
they speak Greek, that they have arrived at the limits of science, would
read the Indian texts, they would be convinced, even if a little late in the
day, that there are others who know something of value.
<end quote>
P.S.Now for the more fun chit chat...From your earlier mail:..you cannot be
a Siddhar. The titles that the Maharishi bestows upon your head has very
little credibility. It's been a while since I wrote...so especially for
you...I am going to write an article about Siddhars later on...it may take a
while...but until then may I suggest "The Smile of Murugan" by Kamil
Zvelebil. It is a very rare book. Rarer to me because I cannot afford to buy
the book now. I do not possess the book, but I have about 20 torn, pages of
the book<there is a thin between woe and fury...i'd personally castrate the
person who tore the pages of a book...> which along with an internet snippet
about Siddhars by Zvelebi triggered an immediate interest re Siddhars.
<snip>
Siddha Quest for Immortality
Sexual, alchemical and medical secrets of the Tamil Siddhas, the poets of
the powers
By Professor Kamil V Zvelebil.
Extract
Foreword
The Tamil Siddhas cannot be regarded as one homogenous 'movement' or 'school
of thought' manifesting a unified, well-defined, uniform ideology. A great
number of elements have entered into their thinking, some of them
pan-Indian, some of them apparently specifically South Indian or Tamil. On
the other hand, their overall ideology has, of course, several basic
doctrinal tenets in common. As we shall see, some of these tenets are in
amazing correspondence with the most recent developments in modern physics
of post-relativity and quantum theory era. The schema of dense and subtle
matter is one of those tenets: according to ultimate Siddha thought, subtle
matter constitutes the inner body of man; matter is nothing but crystallized
energy, and a manifestation of infinite and universal mind ('subtle matter'
reappears in the theories of physicists of our day). An accomplished Siddha
is someone who has learned to harmonize his awareness with this subtle
(sub-atomic?) matter of which he is composed. The Siddha alchemist can live
in the mode of constant appearance and disappearance, manifestation and
dissolution, of subtle matter and energy; and all matter forms a continuum.
Neither matter nor consciousness are ultimate, for both have their source in
something still 'beyond', in Civam which can not really become object of
knowledge. Hence the Siddha poet speaks often of 'silence' :
Silence, unmoved and rising,
Silence, unmoved and sheltering,
Silence, unmoved and permanent,
Silence, unmoved and brilliant,
Silence, broad and immense like the Ganga,
Silence, unmoved and increasing,
Silence, white and shining like the Moon,
Silence, the Essence of Siva.
The only possible predication of the 'something' in which both matter and
consciousness have their source is Void, Emptiness. Hence, again, one of the
key-terms appearing in Siddha poetry: vettaveli, cuniyam 'utter emptiness,
void', veliyirveli (liter.) 'void in emptiness' i.e. supreme, absolute
Emptiness; or, simply, veli (liter 'open space; space; openness')
'emptiness':
Gods made out of wood
Gods made out of stone
Gods made out of palmyra fronds
Gods made out of bone
Gods made out of rags
Gods made out of dung
Gods made out of saffron bags
There are no other gods
but
VOID
(Civavakkiyam 503/510)
must be stressed, however, that by this emptiness is not meant a substantive
emptiness like 'an empty box'. It is emptiness which is a plenum (more about
all this will be said in subsequent chapters). And man can come into contact
with this Void. How, that is precisely what the Siddhas tell us.
These, then, are, in very simplified words, some of the ultimate and basic
doctrinal points common to all those thinkers, poets, alchemists and
physicians designated as cittar (Siddhar, Siddhas) in Tamil India. Now, to
speak of less lofty matters, the reader must be made aware that, nowadays,
when it comes to Siddha medicine and medical practice, there even exist, in
Madras, a government Siddha dispensary, and a government Siddha medical
college. Also, let us return to what divides the Siddhas from one another;
let us mention at least one of their important 'inhomogeneities' - the
Siddha attitude to sex.
The Siddha attitude to sex often manifests features which are in mutual
contrast, and thus represents a good illustration of the heterogeneous
character of the Siddha 'movement'. On the one hand there are Siddha poets
who express utter disgust and revulsion towards women and any sexual
activity (e. g. Pattinattar who in Potu 14 speaks of men who 'for the sake
of a cunt / perish day and night', and in 31 mentions ' women / who smell of
their / sensuality', whose 'limbs stink of their discharge'). Pattinattar is
not the only one, although he probably represents the most vigorous
manifestation of the ascetic, stern, misogynist trend of Siddha thought. On
the other hand, in drastic contrast - so at least it seems - there is an
entire group of Siddha alchemist-medicine men who are obviously raised in
the Tantrik tradition, and who in fact take part in rituals based on the
Tantrik cakrapuja. This stream of Siddha thought and practice will be dealt
with in some detail in chapter 12 of this book, but here I wish to indicate
very briefly the most salient features of such Tantrik-Siddha ritual.
In the centre of a ritual circle (cakkiram) sits a chosen woman, completely
naked, who symbolizes Devi, i. e. Sakti, the Primeval Energy of the Cosmos,
the Goddess, and it is characteristic of the Siddha views that caste or
community is of absolutely no importance either in the selection of this
woman (she can be a virgin as well as a prostitute, a young Brahmin girl as
well as a ripe low- caste lady), or in the gathering of the participants.
This Sakti, thoroughly washed and perfumed all over her body with various
perfumes (according to an exact prescription; for details cf. chapter 12),
sits on a sort of pedestal with widely spread legs so that her yoni (vulva)
is well visible. The leading Siddha will kiss the yoni, and bless various
non-vegetarian foodstuffs through the contact with the yoni by touching and
rubbing with them the vulva of the Sakti. Then these offerings are
distributed among the participants and consumed. The participating men, who
for five days preceding the puja had been eating meat, drinking alcoholic
beverages and using aphrodisiacs according to Siddha pharmacopoeia, will
naturally be in a state of high sexual arousal which must however be
strictly controlled, until ritual cohabitation follows with their chosen
female partners which - and this is a basic and most important requirement -
must never end in ejaculation of the sperm. The Siddha tenet underlying all
this holds that the enormous force which is released by controlled sexual
tension must be translated from the gross physical level to the 'subtle'
body and ultimately to the psychic level whereby one attains various siddhis
or supranormal powers and 'immortality'.
This book consists of some sixteen sections. The introductory chapter
describes in broad outlines general features of Siddha medicine (since this
is what the book is mostly concerned with), and in the following chapter are
spelled out ideological tenets of the specific Siddha quest of immortality.
Next chapter deals with basic principles and beliefs of Siddha physicians.
The following section gives first a rather detailed account of Siddha
materia medica and its use, and moves on to the cure prescribed for a number
of various diseases. Three very brief sections follow: on Siddha yoga, daily
regime, and alchemy. The following chapter is concerned with the specific
Siddha techniques for the attainment of longevity and 'immortality'. Then
follows a description of some doctrinal aspects of Siddhism as reflected in
contemporary medical practice, and of a visit in a Siddha dispensary in
Madras. Tantrik Siddha school and Siddha attitudes to sex are dealt with
next. After the conclusions, a short anthology of selected Siddha poetic
texts is offered to the reader. Index of terms in precise transliteration
and select bibliography close the book.
Cunnilingus according to Tantrik Siddhas
[from a late medieval text in Tamil entitled Treatise on the Arrow of Lust]
First Stage
Like a cow which licks tenderly its calf
spread out your tongue broad
and lick her yoni
lapping up the juices oozing out
like a thirsty dog which laps cool water
(continues)
<snip>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Sep 25 2002 - 13:28:38 MDT