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[VirianDiscipline]:[DisciplinaryProcessSlashMermaid]

I replied at length to this post and stupidly lost it. So you now get a short version. Given the style of [Mermaid 7.3] infra, I guess I have to simplify things in an appropriate scriptural fashion.

[size=3][b][u]The Evolutionary Law of Socialising and Communities Explained[/u][/b][/size]

[b][u]The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part I[/u][/b]

Many people are at computers in a library. In comes an old Lady with a leaky colostomy bag. She sits at a computer and the fetid contents slowly dribble out. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench.

Eventually the entire building is condemned and pulled down.

The residents complain that nobody did anything effective and their library is in ruins. One female with a strident voice says it is all the Hermit's fault, although some fingers are pointed at a glowing entity shaking his head as he watches from a nearby street corner for not having reacted. And they have no library.

[b][u]The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part II[/u][/b]

Many people are at computers in a library. In comes an old Lady with a leaky colostomy bag. She sits at a computer and the fetid contents slowly dribble out. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench. The other visitors take turns beating her up with their fists. She replies by climbing into them with her handbag. Somebody grabs a kids baseball bat and people take turns smashing her kneecaps with it. The little old lady pulls out a 387 magnum and starts blowing people away. The sheriff arrives with a bazzooka and levels the building.

The residents complains that the process was too brutal, the old lady should have been  helped to adjust, and the slightly glowing sheriff far too indiscriminate. And they have no library.

[b][u]The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IIIa[/u][/b]

Many people are at computers in a library. In comes an old Lady with a leaky colostomy bag. She sits at a computer and the fetid contents slowly dribble out. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench, except for one old fart who can't smell a thing as he has a vile pipe clenched between his teeth.

The visitors head to the town hall to take register a petition to ban colustomy bags. The petition is handed out and over the next two weeks, votes are collected banning colestemy bags in the library. Eventually a law is passed, and the residents return to the library to discover that when the liquor from the colostomy bag had soaked the old fart's briefcase, destroying several years of work, he and the old lady had set to at each other, killed one another, the corpses had putrified and eventually burst, coating the entire building with such a vile smell that it is eventually condemned by the health department and pulled down.

The residents complain that nobody did anything fast enough, that there should have been a law against it in the first place, and that their library is in ruins. One female with a strident voice says it is all the Hermit, who is unaccountably missing's fault, although some fingers are pointed at a glowing entity shaking his head as he watches from a nearby street corner for not having reacted.  And they have no library.

[b][u]The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IIIb[/u][/b]

As above.

A new library is erected, protected from leaky colostomy bags by a shiny new regulation.

Many people are at computers in the new library. In comes an old man carrying something in a brown paper bag. Everyone imagines he is a wino, as he keeps placing the bag between his legs as he thinks about whether to have a sip - and then replaces it on the table under the gaze of many curious eyes. They realize how wrong they were, when he accidently knocks the bag over as he replaces it on the table, releasing a spray of urine over the entire area from his portable urinal. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench, except for one ancient 600lb female who can't tell the difference between her perspiration and the old man's urine.

The visitors head to the town hall to take register a petition to ban portable urinals.

Yes, you can figure out how this ends. The two ancients killed one another, the corpses had putrified and eventually burst, coating the entire building with such a vile smell that it is eventually condemned by the health department and pulled down.

The residents complain that nobody did anything fast enough, that there should have been a law against it in the first place, and that their library is in ruins. One female with a strident voice says it is all the Hermit, who is unaccountably missing's fault, although some fingers are pointed at a glowing entity shaking his head as he watches from a nearby street corner for not having reacted.  And they have no library.

[b][u]The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IIIc[/u][/b]

As above.

A new library is erected, protected from leaky colostomy bags and portable urinals by a shiny new regulation.

Many people are at computers in the new library. In comes a philosopher suffering from acute diarrhoea...

The residents complain that nobody did anything fast enough, that there should have been a law against it in the first place, and that their library is in ruins. One female with a strident voice says it is all the Hermit, who is unaccountably missing's fault, although some fingers are pointed at a glowing entity shaking his head as he watches from a nearby street corner for not having reacted.  And they have no library.

[b][u]The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IV[/u][/b]

This library is sane. They say that nobody may make the library unusable for others - and that the librarians should decide on the level of harm. Some residents vote for this idea, and the idea is passed. While some who didn't vote complain slightly, only one one female with a strident voice says it is is a dastardly conspiracy by the Hermit (who may have been seen lurking in quiet places talking to a slightly glowing character).

Many people are at computers in the new library. In comes an old Lady with a leaky colostomy bag. She sits at a computer and the fetid contents slowly dribble out. Everyone is forced away from the computers by the stench. . A librarian comes over and asks the old lady to leave until she has cleaned up. Eventually, everyone else returns.

[Hermit 8] Was the old lady punished?

[Hermit 8] No. She breached the social conventions.

[Hermit 8] Did the old lady break a rule?

[Hermit 8] I looked at our libraries rules. They say nothing about leaky colostomy bags. I bet your library regulations don't mention them either.

[Hermit 8] Was this unfair?

[Hermit 8] Of course not. Her presence penalized the community which asked her to go away until she had changed bags, had a shower and put on clean clothes.

[hr]
[Hermit 6] Perhaps it may be helpful to focus on one paragraph of "The Disciplinary Process"

<snip>

[Mermaid 7] Why do you keep quoting from the disciplinary process when it is the very process that I am questioning?

[Hermit 8] Because the topic is not "future goals" but rather "own goals" and the "Disciplinary Process" properly proposed, voted for and accepted by the congregation of the CoV and scheduled for discussion next Tuesday.
[hr]
[Hermit 6] I suggest that this paragraph is a key to understanding what the entire "non-punishment" oriented regime we have instituted is about.

[Mermaid 7 ] Errr..I *dont* want to understand the 'non punishment' regime..personally, i think its a misnomer...you cant threaten us with 'conform...or else...............' and then call it non-punishment.

[Hermit 8] Perhaps if you "wanted to understand it", you might? Please reread "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IV" until you do.
[hr]
[Mermaid 7] Once again..whatever it may be..I want to know WHAT the church is going to do for me. What do I gain from membership to CoV? Can I get a simple answer for this?

[Hermit 8] I'm not a mind reader.

[Hermit 8] Who forced you to join us? How are you forced to stay here?

[Hermit 8] I seriously doubt that we are going to be paying you to stay here or vote you a pension. I'm probably not even going to thank you for your helpful suggestions on this thread.
[hr]
[Hermit 6]Please consider for a moment that nobody has a "right" to be a member of a church or other such "community of the willing."

[Mermaid 7.1] Rights cannot exist without duties. Can duties exist without rights?

[Hermit 8] You are a Magister in good standing, accepted by the community. This gives you a conditional right to use our facilities (#virus on IRC, the maillist, the BBS (including the Cathedral, edit the Wiki and Vote). Should you no longer be in good standing, for whatever reason, some or all of your access to our facilities may be limited in order to protect the interests of the whole community. Again, think of it in terms of "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IV"
[hr]
[Hermit 6] Not only does an outsider have a choice as to whether or not they wish to join with a community, but the community has the choice as to whether or not to accept that person as a member of the community.

[Mermaid 7]We have the Meridion for this purpose.

[Hermit 8] On a point of order we have both Meridion and "The Dsciplinary Process"

[Mermaid 7] I dont see the point of the disciplinary process.

[Hermit 8] Please reread "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag Part IV" until you do.

[Mermaid 7] The advantage of the Meridion over the DiP is that members figure it out for themselves how they should behave. They can see how their bad behaviour and good behaviour affects them.

[Hermit 8] Please reread "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag" until you understand the limitations of Meridian.

[Mermaid 7] Being that the Meridion is not perfect yet, maybe more energy should be invested in refining the Meridion(considering that it already has 50 members) and fixing its glitches instead promoting DiP.

[Hermit 8] While this thread is [b][i]not[/i][/b] about Meridion, and this is therefore off topic and out of bounds, I will take the opportunity to mention that asides like this are not helpful. Positive criticism [b][i]identifies[/i][/b] the problems [b][i]you[/i][/b] perceive and makes [b][i]suggestions as to how to resolve them[/i][/b]. If I have not committed suicide before then, I will be doing the same thing next week for Meridion. I [b][i]strongly[/i][/b] recommend that you [b][i]write[/i][/b] a paper containing your [b][i]positive[/i][/b] criticism in anticipation of this now. That way you will have tiime to think about what you wish to say.
[hr]
[Hermit 6] From this it follows, that when the community withdraws it's assent from a member, temporarily or permanently, this is not in any way an infringement of the member in question's "rights", unless a "right" to be a member of the community exists.

[Mermaid 7] Eh?

[Hermit 8] If you had read the next line before making silly noises you might have comprehended it.

[Hermit 8] There is no "right" to be a member of a community (you agree with this in [Mermaid 7.2] infra.). So when a community withdraws the membership it granted you [assent] they don't affect your "rights" at all. Is that simple enough to comprehend?

[Hermit 6] However, as we have seen, no "right" to be a member does exist.

[Mermaid 7.2] I think its very clear that nobody has the 'right' to be a member of the community, but when a person has already signed up...especially so with the rep system...the member *does* have rights.

[Hermit 8] Yet in [Mermaid 7.1] above you agreed, "Rights cannot exist without duties." Your duty is to act as a responsible member of the community. When the community regards you as having voided this compact, then you have forfeited those rights.

[Mermaid 7] Except in cases of extreme bad behaviour when the sheriff steps in, there is no need to discipline the member.

[Hermit 8.2] We already are suffering growth pangs. If we succeed on a larger scale, which hopefully will happen if the Disciplinary Process means that we don't have to rebuild the "library" every six months, we will need something scaleable or this will happen again and again. The replacement system for the sheriff, "The Disciplinary Process" is designed to be scaleable. In any case, the Sherif has hung up his gun, so this is again off topic and out of bounds. However, if it allows you easier comprehension, pretend that the Sheriff now has deputies with the same powers. Because the Sheriff was not paid to do this messy job, received no thanks for it anyway he was not available 24x7. And who can blame him. Instead of specific laws, with absolute results, we now have more discretion and much finer grained responses are possible. The intent of the "Disciplinary Process" is reconciliation, not blasting the hell out of people. Returning to the forum may usually be accomplished by a public apology to the forum and a promise not to repeat an offense. Naturally a repeat of such an offense will be regarded much more seriously. If you have not understood this paragraph, please reread the "The Parable of the Colostomy Bag" until you do.

[Mermaid 7]But since you bought it up...I really want to know....with all this 'desired and expected behaviour', since DiP implies that there is a great pressure on the member to conform...where is the pressure on CoV to deliver more than a chat room and a bbs forum to its members. I absolutely believe that there is more that CoV can offer. It can offer purpose, goals, a means to combine all our strengths and ideas to create something better...*if* we get our heads together...*if* we discuss it....lets have a chat about that first. Then we can hold a chat about DiP.

[Hermit 8] When we get through defining the basic housekeeping, we will resume this discussion. It seems to me that it is now several weeks or months away - at least if it depends on rereaching agreement on everything already worked through for your benefit. Not that this is a major disadvantage, as it will ensure that even the lame, deaf and halting will be intimately familiar with every subtlety of what is going on. As others in this forum have, to my certain knowledge, been working on exactly this since at least 1998 (including very thorough discussions on education), there is obviously no hurry. When we reolve all the nuances and irrelevancies that everyone wishes to raise and I have some time available, I will work on establishing the previous material in an accessible format. Certainly, on this thread, this issue is off topic and out of bounds.

[Hermit 6] So when our  community acts to protect itself, its members and good order, by withdrawing its countenance, facilities or acceptance from a member, the community is not "punishing" the member, it is simply disassociating itself from the behaviour, and in extreme cases, the person that the community perceives as not being in unity with it.

[Mermaid 7]I hear. We already has the sheriff doing that job. It is unlikely that an unpleasant specimen will emerge again in CoV. Examples have been made from previous unpleasantness. Everyone knows the consequences. If people insist on bad behaviour, I think its pretty telling and quite suicidal.

[Hermit 8] In this "very nasty man's" opinion (Ref [url=http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=29399] [ Mermaid, "Re:Debate Challenge #2", Reply #11, 2003-10-02 ] [/url] you are quite palpably wrong. Other examples abound in the logs and on the BBS (including further examples in that post). In any case, this issue was dealt with in [Hermit 8.2] supra, and remains off-topic and out of bounds.

[Mermaid 7.3] Cant you see? You are telling people why CoV wont want them..why they will be rejected...how they should behave..instead of telling them how they are unique..how they can be useful and how they can get better and make others better....Its like telling a child that you'd spank him if he doesnt get good grades..instead of telling the child that you'd reward him if he gets good grades. I vote for not spanking and collective rewards. If you think spanking will work more than reward, then maybe we should have a chat about *that* instead. Anything but how and why you will administer the spanking.

[Hermit 8] No. We are establishing the "Virian rules of Procedure" - something it is usual to do before you begin, but fortunately, it is never too late to reinvent yourself in an evolutionary organization.

[Mermaid 7] CoV members are not children. We are mature and on most days, rational adults. We can see reason. We can weigh the consequences of our actions. We have vision. We can create a better world. I'd bet most of us dont want to conform. Its probably precisely because we didnt want to conform that we sought out a place like CoV. Demanding that we conform to any kind of 'desired and acceptable behaviour' is an insult to our intelligence. Regardless of the language...I protest. We know who they are....the silly ones..the childish ones..the not so serious ones..the malicious ones...the wonderful thing is we are diverse..and we need them all..the mean, the nasty, the kind, the hasty, the wise, the funny....its not our behaviour that brought us together..it was our beliefs...

[Hermit 8] We have seen the result of 8 years of that which you advocate. In consequence, the BBS is filled with examples which prove that Virians are no different from other people. Without clear rules of play, we spend our time bickering and as in a septic tank, a few big pieces float to the top. This is not attractive to the wider audience we would like to attract, nay, need to attract, in order to accomplish our goal of distributing our memeplex. Nor does it form a picture of anything more attrative than any other memeplex. If we wish to convince others that the Virian Virtues are a worthwhile ideal, we need to demonstrate it. Right now we don't. The Disciplinary Process is designed to establish an environment which we can be proud to invite others to visit - yet provide the flexibility to express creativity and intelligence in a disciplined way. If this loses us a few members, it will be more than made up for by not experiencing periodic "purges." In addition, we anticipate that showing the benefit of a rational (as opposed to chaotic approach) will result in a rapid upswelling of both numbers and quality.

[Mermaid 7] What we CANNOT ignore is the fact that we have no common goals. We are united but we dont know why we are together or what we are going to do with our combined strengths. I really think we need to talk about that. It is a lot more urgent than DiP. If you would use your energy in figuring that out and working with people like me(and many others like me) who are interested in finding a way to make good of the strength in our current numbers instead of investing time and energy in DiP, I am sure a lot of people will appreciate it. Think about it.

[Hermit 8] Asked and answered. Repeatedly. Please go to our home page and read [url=http://virus.lucifer.com/about.html]"About"[/url]. Notice a section called "Goal." Right, the one I repeatedly referenced earlier in this thread.

[Hermit 8] Let me save you the trouble.
[size=4][color=Yellow] Virus was originally created to compete with the traditional (irrational) religions in the human ideosphere with the idea that it would introduce and propagate memes which would ensure the survival and evolution of our species. The main advantage conferred upon adherents is Virus provides a conceptual framework for leading a truly meaningful life and attaining immortality without resorting to mystical delusions.[/color][/size]

[Hermit 8] Looks like "common goals" tome.

[Hermit 8] Apropos of something, if we are to have meaningful discussions, then we need some common rules before we try to seek "common" anything else. Which is why this material remains Off-Topic and Out-of-Bounds on this thread.
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