RE: virus: maxims and ground rules and suppositions

TheHermit (carlw@hermit.net)
Mon, 17 May 1999 17:00:34 -0500

I'd say most ideas are "supposed", as were "the Heavens" and as I pointed out, Bacon who introduced the word to English (and read and wrote Latin fluently)certainly considered it as containing the imaginary as well as the real. "All things seen and unseen" certainly includes the purely imaginary. Are not Father Christmas - and the gods - not unseen items? Are you arguing that they are not in the universe? The "world" includes the "world of idea" and you recall that I included everything that is and that will exist into my definition. That was precisely in order to meet the requirement which is stipulated in the Funk and Wagnalls definition that it is everything "existing" (including existing ideas). By stipulating a set of {things which will exist} we also include future ideas. Or do you believe that ideas don't exist, or come from some shadowy alternate Universe? Stop fighting it. It is a very useful concept. Study some set theory. Most implementation's require a universal set (This gets very complicated very quickly, so I am leaving it here for now).

Logics are a branch of philosophy. Yet the idea of the all inclusive universe is by no means restricted to logics. And we were talking metaphysics - for a while there anyway :-) Still are for that matter. Even if we are (temporarily I'm sure) stuck in a cosmological, ontological and epistemological loop.

I thought we had concluded that a "statement of truth" in search of a context was usually a "non-statement of truth"?

Yes. 5.43645645 + 2.1229098 = 7.55936625 is true (in base 10 and assuming "+" means addition and "=" implies equality) and useful as it solves an addition problem, speaks to the nature of numbers and of the symbols we use to manipulate them. It also proves that you can add, and I can check your results. Bingo! We are communicating meaningfully. All that from one little sum :-)

"Saints fly only in the eyes of their disciples." -- Hindu proverb

Awesome. I will be quoting it. Do you have a reference? This is also a truth. And knowing at least one Hindu "saint" too many (self proclaimed and more wannabe than actual IMO), and far too many of his disciples, I can attest to the belief if not the practice :-) Is it useful? Certainly. It speaks to many levels and by analogy tells us something very fundamental about people who are prepared to be disciples as well as about the so called "saints".

Wittgenstein's opinion, although only published posthumously, is so convincing that most philosophers (and all scientists I know), use the "test of utility" to determine whether a meaning can be ascribed to a statement. Apropos of something, it applies to statements like "the snark was a boojum" - if it is not meaningful, it cannot be useful, and thus is neither true nor false. Just meaningless.

Your examples re the circle are circular. They are based on sin and cos
(which are based on the relationship of the radius and circumference of a
circle which is defined by space-time, and thus they can be redefined in terms other than the rations of circles. For example I can redefine them in terms of e, seperately defined by the nature of numbers in our space time) or upon the value of PI which is also based on a circle. To test your descriptions, I do not need a meta language* at all. I can use simple algebra and trigonometry (which you introduced and which are an intrinsic component of mathematical language) to prove that your formulae simplify to a circle (and by the way, in the first example, 0<=theta<=2*Pi is wrong. You would leave out the point at 0/360 degrees thus you have not defined a circle.). The only reason for not doing that here is the difficulty of drawing a diagram in ASCII email. Barely doable, and a preposterous waste of energy.

Add the requirement for threading, full XTML, complete character sets and dynamic discussions with shared whiteboards (preferably able to show who did what) to your email document requirement.

Your assertion that I am implying a Platonic ideal, does not convert what I have said into even hoping that there might be one. A platonic ideal would suppose the idea of a perfect circle, where even the definition of a "perfect circle" would only be a shadow of that perfection. /me shudders and unimagines Plato. And claiming that the "idea" or "supposition" or "unseen" or "invisible" or "definitional" set of class {circle} does not exist, does not remove it from the universe. You see, I think you are deliberately looking away from the point.

A circle (as defined) can only exist in this "real" universe because of the shape of space-time.
If our space-time were different, the circle you draw would be different. And even were it is possible to create a "circle", it would have different attributes.
So it is space-time that defines a circle. As such the circle - even the idea of a circle is defined by space-time. Space-time exists only as an attribute of a universe.

Let me put as a syllogism:

Nothing which is not in a universe can interact with that universe
(definitional antecedent).

The definition of a circle is determined by the space-time which is an attribute of that universe (logical antecedent). The definition of a circle is in a universe (consequent).

Unless you can "break" one of the above points, then the final line of that syllogism must stand as the logical consequence.

Hermit

P.S. A "metalanguage" is nothing special, it is simply a language about language. And may be a formal statement of the language in the language itself. For example, the metalanguage for EBNF is written in EBNF. (extended bauer normal form). In the same way a meta-set-theory can be built which excludes the universal set (or more correctly, makes set-theory the universe set but makes it inapplicable for any application but the discussion of set-theory - told you it gets complex)) and deals with set-theory about set-theory. Nothing wrong with that.

P.P.S. Anyone studying set theory should also study symbolic logic. It is a good idea to study symbolic logic first. Irving Copi, Symbolic Logic, fifth edition, Macmillan, 1979 is a very recommended starting point. I still use Richmond H. Thomason Symbolic Logic An Introduction, 1st edition, Macmillan, 1970 with people I am introducing to Sybolic Logic, Lamda Calculus and Set Theory.

Set Theory Bibliography (Thomas Forster's master bibliography for the entire subject, as updated by Paul West):

For those unfamiliar with the field, two places to start are the New Foundations Home Page (http://math.idbsu.edu/~holmes/holmes/nf.html) and Thomas Forster's book "Set Theory with a Universal Set". A new option is afforded by the recent appearance of Holmes's elementary text.

Recent Work
Holmes, M. R. [1998]
Elementary set theory with a universal set. volume 10 of the Cahiers du Centre de logique, Academia, Louvain-la-Neuve
(Belgium), 241 pages, ISBN 2-87209-488-1.

Forster, Thomas [1997]
Quine's NF, 60 years on.
American Mathematical Monthly, vol. 104, no. 9 (November), pp. 838-845.

Esser, O. [1996]
Inconsistency of GPK + AFA.
Mathematical Logic Quarterly 42, pp. 104-108.

Dziergowski, D. [1995]
Models of intuitionistic TT and NF.
Journal of Symbolic Logic 60, pp. 640-653.

Holmes, M.R. [1995a]
The equivalence of NF-style set theories with "tangled" type theories; the construction of omega-models of predicative NF (and more). Journal of Symbolic Logic 60, pp. 178-189.

Holmes, M.R. [1995b]
Untyped lambda-calculus with relative typing. Typed Lambda-Calculi and Applications (Proceedings of TLCA '95), Springer, pp. 235-248.

Jech, T. [1995]
OTTER experiments in a system of combinatory logic Journal of Automated Reasoning, 14, pp. 413-426.



Comprehensive Bibliography

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Arruda, A. [1970b]
Sur les systèmes NF-omega.
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Arruda, A. [1971]
La mathématique classique dans NF-omega. Comptes Rendus hebdomadaires des séances de l'Académie des Sciences de Paris
(série A) 272, p. 1152.

Arruda, A. and Da Costa, N.C.A. [1964]
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(série A) 259, pp. 2943-2945.

Barwise, J. [1984]
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Benes, V.E. [1954]
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Boffa, M. [1971]
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Models of intuitionistic TT and NF.
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N.F.
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Set Theory with a Universal Set.
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