Hi Richard, thanks for participating. Just like couldn't let it pass, neither can I.
> ...hi folks. I'm new to this list - how's everybody doing?
> ...I've been lurking for a while, trying to get the feel of what's
> going on (very impressive for the most part, found some instructive
> stuff yesterday).
> ...anyhow, I just couldn't let this pass.
> > No, we should withdraw, and let thousands be slaughtered and
> > hundreds of thousands be deported and dispossessed, simply because
> > we are not perfect and errorless warriors, therefore no better than
> > the latest Hitler clone Europe has spawned!
> ...for a list devoted at least in part to a discussion of memetics,
> I've got to confess I'm a little bit apalled. Let's take a brief look
> at this whole Hitler comparison, shall we. The disputes in Kosovar go
> back hundreds of years and are based on complex interactions of
> ethnicity, religion and the territorial imperative. The comparison of
> Milosevic (sp?) to Hitler is specious and an obvious strawman,
> fostered by the military-entertainment complex to lend surface weight
> to the whole action. (anybody seen the latest TIME magazine - "the
> new face of evil"?)
Yes, we saw it. A bit extreme, but since it is a private endeavor, opinions are expected. The comparison to Hitler in many ways is extreme and reactionary. For the most part that comparison has dwindled; HOWEVER, history aside, the actions that are taking place there are similar. Milosovic is ordering mass executions, sanctioning the rape and torture of civilians, forcing them from their homes under threat of death, and when the opportunity arises, herding people for easy extermination. Now, this may not equal the scale upon which Hitler worked, but the crimes are similar, the reasons (hatred of another religion and culture) are similar, and the effect is the same. Now if you want to say that Milosovic is not "evil" then I am curious what a man has to do to be evil?
> ...If the concern is really about preventing slaughter and
> disposession of civilians then why hasn't action been taken in areas
> where the same process has been going on for a much longer period of
Perhaps it should have been, many have been calling for the removal of Milosovic long ago, we did intervene in Bosnia, and Haiti. The question is, because we did not intervene in other cases that we should have, should we just watch it this time too? I say no, we should intervene whenever there is a good chance of success.
The answer is simple - Kosovo and surrounding regions are a
> historically unstable area of the world, the US has vested interests
> in maintaining both regional stability in the area and good relations
> with military/trade allies in the region (Turkey springs immediately
> to mind).
Obviously these interests are important, but watching this stuff happen would not hurt our interests. This part of the world, though often in turmoil, is really irrelevant to the business end of things. I think that the suggestion that this is "all about money" is unfounded in this case. I think that so far our motivation is not that complicated - it is simply a humanitarian thing to do.
> In areas where US military/trade interests are unlikely to
> be affected by such actions ("ethnic cleansing" or whatever other
> glossy soundbite memetic tag you'd like to put on the event) - eg.
> Columbia, Laos - noone cares, a bline eye is turned and as long as
> the cash keeps flowing it'll stay that way.
> At this point, I
> > firmly am convinced that Milosevic is hunkering down in Belgrade
> > bunkers whilst waging his propaganda war via the internet and CNN
> ...hmmm... how a dictatorial regime from a small central european
> country could launch a propaganda war over communications media
> developed in the land of his enemies, controlled by his enemies and
> sponsored by the industrial arm of the enemy economic system is a bit
> beyond me... care to explain?
It's very easy, I suppose you have not been looking for the info like many of us have. Read Prof Tim's list of lews on the subject and you will see what is meant. The people in Serbia are getting news that is almost entirely fabricated - look for yourself.
> > and instructing the Tiger Brigades to accelerate their genocide and
> > forced relocation programs, and that nothing short of a ground war
> > will deter him.
> ...well of course he is. It wouldn't make much sense for him to tell
> them to hold back now, would it.
Not if your goal is to kill or otherwise eliminate the opposition - all the more reason to up our attacks.
> ...let's assume this is true. Any suggestions on how we should go
> about stopping the well-documented and extensive bullyboy tactics
> employed by the United States?
> ..."the force meme"... I don''t think Yoda would approve.
Then how come Yoda has to train the young and able to fight? You dont see Luke or Yoda "willing" the Emperor into submission.
> ...technically, the sword of Damocles hands above, not ahead, but I
> digress. Your metaphor is apt, but ill-applied - the lesson of the
> swordof Damocles is that a wise ruler must carefully balance a range
> of competing interests and agendas while maintaining a functional
> environment. The way to do this is not by selectively targeting
> atrocities inimical to governmental interests while pointedly
> ignoring others. Balance requires a clear and consistent application
> of principle, not a cynical application of force to serve selfish
I think you will, get no argument about the need for consistency in policy, but like I said earlier, you need to start at some point. Hopefully this policy will remain active in all cases.
> Sure, the medicine's bitter,
> > in terms of lives lost and money spent, but we'll feel much better
> > when the global body politic is free of this fascist disease
> ...granted that fascism is a current affliction of the "global body
> politic" (which is itself an artificial memetic construction designed
> to grant certain powerful bodies a facile means of excusing their
> self-serving actions). Bombs do not, have not and probably never will
> serve as an effective antidote. Fascism is not a physical complex, it
> is an ideological complex.
I disagree about the bombs not being the cure, there comes a time that in some cases where violence is the only remaining resort to an immediate situation. Obviously Facism is an idiology, and if this works, it will be more obvious to would be Fascists that there are more peaceful means of obtaining power.