First off - this is too long, It would take me half the day to read and another half to reply - since I work for a living, a full rebuttal is out of the question. I know that you are simply trying to be through though - no offense intended.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com
> [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> Of TheHermit
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 2:48 PM
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: virus: Bill's "perspective" on Presidential character and too
> much TV - all in one brief note...
>
>
> This is the most effective character demolition job that I
> have seen in
> years! As a visitor here in the United States, I would not
> have chosen to be
> so vicious, but I have heard that mirrors are frequently the
> worst critics.
> If I didn't know that not all Americans are like this, I
> suppose I might
> fall into the trap of believing that the majority of
> Americans represents
> the norm. As it is, this seems to be an adequately dreadful warning to
> people considering doing business with Americans...
So then, what is your definition of the "norm" if it is not a majority in this case?
>From his
Certainly you have an example of this that is outside of the Lewinsky
dress-party? I don't know of any "blindingly apparent" cases of Bill being
selfish other than his zipper problem. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
> actions and words in
> past years, it is seems blindingly apparent that Bill Clinton
> is far more
> interested in the welfare of Bill Clinton than in the dignity
> of the office
> of the President. Ask not for whom the Bill toils, he toils
> not for thee.
> For an American to claim that lies from one branch of
> government to another
> are unimportant shows that American schools have utterly
> failed to do their
> duty in explaining the principles of government and in
> particular the duty
> of the members of government to defend the constitution.
> Madison, Jefferson
> and Adams would be horrified, although Jefferson, at least,
> anticipated
> assaults of this nature.
These gentleman, though I love and respect them all, had similar problems as modern Presidents do, to idolize them and put them above human nature is simple idolatry. Jefferson was sleeping with his slaves, Adams though he was a King, even had it etched into the White House fireplace mantle "God bless all those who rule this country" I think is the quote. To look at ours or any government and actually believe that Truth and honesty rule is simply naive.
> One of the reasons that the USA has
> complicated
> interrelationships and interdependencies between the
> legislative, executive
> and judicial branches of government is to attempt to protect
> the American
> form of republic from assaults from within. It used to be
> that even crooked
> politicians would attempt to elect a reasonably competent
> president. It used
> to be that even a crooked president would attempt to rule well when
> confronted with the requirements of the office. Both of these
> reflected the
> effects of education about the workings of the system. Today crooked
> politicians elect incompetent presidents and one of the 3
> legs of protection
> enjoyed by the republic has vanished. A related concern is the current
> tendency for the legislative branch to attempt to prevent the judicial
> branch from monitoring the application of laws. For example in certain
> terrorism and immigration issues. As long as this trend continues, the
> protections afforded the American people will continue to be
> eroded.
I agree that it is a problem, but you (and I)are living with a microscope on our current problems, and ignoring history. There are so many cases for this argument, I don't even know where to begin. Think about the McCarthy era - in the 50s, or the black south, or the plight of Gays, Women couldn't even vote 70 years ago!!!! We are concerned about small swings in rights, all of which you and I would like to liberalize, but in reality, there is no real threat to a majority of rights, but there are different threats to some specific rights that as long as we remain on our toes and active, should remain intact.
The one thing that I do wholeheartedly agree with is that the lack of people taking education seriously is a problem (and I don't blame the system like many do, I blame parents). My sister in law is an elementary school teacher, and like I suspected and probably you too, her children are almost always a reflection of the parents. I am impressed with the quality of public schools (elementary) in most places I go, but the parents seem to continually muck things up. I truly believe that my 1st thru 6th grade experience was excellent.
We seem so often to be very contradictory - we look into history and see all the awful things we did - Annihilating the Indians, Enslaving the Blacks, herding Japanese into camps, Tuskogee, Vietnam etc... to show how great we are today. But when we want to insult the current population and culture, the bad things in history fade away so we can say "look how cool we were - Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt, the Bill of Rights" to make the new point. This whole cycle is absurd. In my eyes we have gone from the Barbarians with hope for the future, to semi-civilized people who often act like barbarians. A line that is slowly improving when all things are measured. More of us today live longer and fuller lives than we ever could have then.
Bill Roh
Sodom
> *Despite everything else written about how bad Jefferson was,
> at least one
> accusation has no merit at all. The reason he did not
> emancipate his slaves,
> including his children with Sally Hemings seems to have been
> that the laws
> of Virginia at that time required freed slaves to leave the
> state within a
> year.
>
> PS I refused to snip the following. It is far to good an indictment of
> American's and the president's characters to deserve sniping.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com
> > [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> > Of Sodom
> > Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 8:04 AM
> > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > Subject: RE: virus: yet another "perspective" regarding Yugoslavia
> >
> >
> > >Tinkerer Wrote:
> > > i love how people attack the presidents moral values as
> > > having any bearing
> > > on the actions of our country. last time i heard we had 3
> > branches of
> > > government and a system of checks and balances preventing
> > > absolute power...
> > > perhaps we should crumble the idea of a single president and
> > > split his 5
> > > constitutional roles to five different people, but i suppose
> > > an orgy with
> > > the interns is a little inapropriate...
> >
> >
> > This part always makes me laugh too. It's funny how people
> > like to go after
> > a President's moral character, no matter who that Prez is.
> > First off, lets
> > be honest here: It takes a special kind of person to go
> > through polotics at
> > that level. Not just any Joe can handle it. No matter how I
> > may dislike a
> > President, I have always thought a few things about the
> > Presidency: Every
> > President has had the best interests of the United States
> > first in his mind
> > and actions - even if we disagree on what the "best
> > interests" are. Every
> > President has lied to the people or Congress, probably
> > several times on
> > several issues, this does not make the person "bad". Many
> > Presidents have
> > been womanizers - this is not bad either, and from a
> > historical/biological
> > standpoint is makes a population think their leader is
> > powerful, virile and
> > savvy. I do understand that a President should have more
> > zipper control, but
> > I can live with it just fine. (I would feel the same if there
> > were a woman
> > in that position). I wish people would stop blaming "The
> Jews" or "The
> > Republicans" or whoever on national policy issues and realize
> > that in this
> > and most cases, the President is doing what he perceives as
> > in our best
> > interests and the people support him. If you dont like it,
> > you need to blame
> > the whole country because it is not just one group who wants
> > the US to lead
> > the way, it is a vast majority of Americans that want this -
> > me being one of
> > them.
> >
> > Bill Roh
> >
> >
>