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Topic: A Challenge or two (Read 5135 times) |
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David Lucifer
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #15 on: 2002-01-28 23:27:38 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-25 16:47:38
Search Engine troubles?
I know that Hypatia (and some other things I have looked for must be in the archives somewhere... but the engine comes up with a blank... |
I got 21 hits for "Hypatia". The trick is to bump up the "days since last post" to 800 or so to include the last 2 years of messages.
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #16 on: 2002-01-28 23:41:54 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-28 18:13:16
Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-24 16:39:48
1) A relatively simple suggestion
I think that the ability to do a global search and replace to convert mail addresses in the archives to a BBS avatar, and so "link" old addresses. This would get rid of dead addresses (and limit access to amail addresses if desired) and allow the stats to operate across multiple addresses.
It might be implemented as a global search and replace run on request after the next back-up session. It would always require supervisor attention as it would need the supervisor to decide whether the request was valid (i.e valid identity and owner of the emails in question).
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Congratulations on the name replace. It looks good. Just double check for "Jake" who, if memory serves is also our "Viral Prophet" and that will push his posts up too.
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memelab@aol.com is also the "Viral Prophet"...
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #17 on: 2002-01-29 00:10:53 » |
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Don't you hate "it would be nice if"...
Here are some more...
It would be nice if the "typing box" expanded and shrank based on the page size. This is a little painful.
It would be nice if there were a spell checker.
To think about:
Is it possible to set up additional link-ins here using the same access control? e.g:
Collaborative Web pages? (Zope, WebDAV, FTP or even "PUT" up-loads)
A Database?
IRC/Chat? i.e. the on-line box might link directly to an IRC/Group IM server?
If you don't know Zope, take a look at it. This BBS blows away most of the Zope ones, but Zope does offer some very cool collaborative content tools which I am beginning to think might be a better idea for some things. And it would be possible to use the "CMF" to allow the enforcement of a consistent style.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Oh Shit!
« Reply #18 on: 2002-01-30 05:49:15 » |
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After three hours of editing, I clicked 'post' and got back:
Quote:
An Error Has Occurred!
Your message is too long. Please go back and shorten it, then resubmit.
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I then clicked "back" - which was a mistake as it took me back - to an empty poll page...
Sigh!
>
:'(
What is the limit?
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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David Lucifer
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Enlighten me.
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Re:Oh Shit!
« Reply #19 on: 2002-01-30 13:05:46 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-30 05:49:15
I then clicked "back" - which was a mistake as it took me back - to an empty poll page...
What is the limit?
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Brutal! :'( The current limit is 10000 chars, but is flexible. What would you like?
I've noticed the problem with hitting the back button and losing the message I was working on. Seems to be intermittent so I'm not sure what is going on there. I can only suggest saving your work as you go.
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David Lucifer
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #20 on: 2002-01-30 13:11:48 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-29 00:10:53
It would be nice if the "typing box" expanded and shrank based on the page size. This is a little painful.
It would be nice if there were a spell checker.
To think about:
Is it possible to set up additional link-ins here using the same access control? e.g:
Collaborative Web pages? (Zope, WebDAV, FTP or even "PUT" up-loads)
A Database?
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All good suggestions. We need a prioritized TODO list (a database would be useful for that  ). I don't think the text box could be expandable (unless it was a Java app maybe), but a compromise might be to make the size a profile setting. TWiki does this and it works reasonably well.
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IRC/Chat? i.e. the on-line box might link directly to an IRC/Group IM server?
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I'm working on this now. Also working on setting it up so that replies in the mailing list archive board are sent to the list.
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If you don't know Zope, take a look at it. This BBS blows away most of the Zope ones, but Zope does offer some very cool collaborative content tools which I am beginning to think might be a better idea for some things. And it would be possible to use the "CMF" to allow the enforcement of a consistent style.
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I've looked a bit at Zope. Also looked at TWiki for collaborative web page development. TWiki is easier to use but doesn't look as good.
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Hermit
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Character limit
« Reply #21 on: 2002-01-30 14:33:42 » |
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2002-01-30 13:05:46
Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-30 05:49:15
I then clicked "back" - which was a mistake as it took me back - to an empty poll page...
What is the limit?
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Brutal! :'( The current limit is 10000 chars, but is flexible. What would you like?
I've noticed the problem with hitting the back button and losing the message I was working on. Seems to be intermittent so I'm not sure what is going on there. I can only suggest saving your work as you go.
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If I am correct, the principle limit is the amount of time a user has to wait for a page (or mail) to arrive rather than server or even client load, meaning that it is essentially arbitrary. We have 3 real considerations given some peoples lack of snipping habits, others cut and pasting habbits and my tendency to over-long posts.
I took a look in my cache and found that the HTML there ranged from 0k to 671k with a very clumpy distribution (5k, 80k, 180k centers), and an estimated median (by inspection - this is on a windows box, not *nix) of somewhere between 60k and 130k. I suspect I'd go for 100k initially (about 30 sec at 28800) and see how often we bump heads on that. Perhaps even allowing 160k posts but bouncing anything over 60k past a moderator to do some non-arbitrary snipping when it is a one-line reply to a 1,000 line post.
An alternative and possibly better approach (where I don't have easy access to the raw data right now - but suspect that you upped that limit from 40k and also that I seldom hit it these days) might be to look at the current limit on the CoV list and use that or the size of one of the larger posts you have manually approved.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #22 on: 2002-01-30 14:58:24 » |
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[Hermit 1*] It would be nice if the "typing box" expanded and shrank based on the page size. This is a little painful.
[David 1] I don't think the text box could be expandable (unless it was a Java app maybe), but a compromise might be to make the size a profile setting. TWiki does this and it works reasonably well.
[Hermit 2] I don't see why it would need Java (although that should not be an insurmountable obstacle :-)). The Frame around each post grows and shrinks with the window. The text box within can surely do the same (i. e. define the size as a percentage of the width, rather than a fixed size). Seeing this WAP like 55 character box with an awful lot of "blue space" around it is very depressing.
[Hermit 1] It would be nice if there were a spell checker.
[David 1] To think about:
[Hermit 1] Is it possible to set up additional link-ins here using the same access control? e.g:
[Hermit 1] Collaborative Web pages? (Zope, WebDAV, FTP or even "PUT" up-loads)
[Hermit 1] A Database?
[David 1] All good suggestions. We need a prioritized TODO list (a database would be useful for that ).
[Hermit 1] IRC/Chat? i.e. the on-line box might link directly to an IRC/Group IM server?
[David 1] I'm working on this now. Also working on setting it up so that replies in the mailing list archive board are sent to the list.
[Hermit 1] If you don't know Zope, take a look at it. This BBS blows away most of the Zope ones, but Zope does offer some very cool collaborative content tools which I am beginning to think might be a better idea for some things. And it would be possible to use the "CMF" to allow the enforcement of a consistent style.
[David 1] I've looked a bit at Zope. Also looked at TWiki for collaborative web page development. TWiki is easier to use but doesn't look as good.
[Hermit 2] The ability to produce "active content" and link in database pages painlessly in Zope is the real kicker. (Besides it has a "real" programming language which makes the geek types (like me) happy). And the use of WebDAV makes it really easy to work on collaborative issues. For those who are not into programming the simple text and picture objects allows it to be used relatively painlessly.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #23 on: 2002-01-30 18:11:06 » |
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Note Raven Black's sensible query:
[Raven Black] I don't see an option to say "Send this thread to my email" in there.
[Hermit] I'd suggest that this could be accomplished by a vector per forum and thread to which recipients could add and remove themselves for each top-level forum and thread.
[Hermit] This would require a trivial change to the display routines (adding subscribe/unsubscribe buttons) and the addition of a single page allowing a user to see all the forums and top level threads as a tree (refer Joust, Ivan Peters, 2002-01-30 for the best I have found) with buttons on the tree to subscribe unsubscribe to either forums or threads.
Regards
Hermit
Postscript: Even in gedanken experiments there are bugs... I changed the data structure between the Forum display and the thread display to remove some redundant information, and then switched to using an editor so as not to suffer linewrap and when I pasted the bottom half back, I missed overpasting the Event BtnForumUnsubscribe and Event BtnForumSubscribe, which both need to clear the ThreadVectors, as the meaning of the ThreadVector inverts depending on whether or not the member is a member of the Forum. In addition, I noticed that I had somehow dropped a pair of 'End Whiles' in the edit users routine, which is now inserted. In addition, I added the needed "code" tags to prevent a few formatting mix-ups.
Sorry about that.
Regards
Hermit
Required Data Structures:
Code:
Struct ForumVector //One per forum
{
UserId //pointer to user structure
}
Struct ThreadVector //One per thread
{
UserId //pointer to user structure
}
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Required Programs
Code:
Display Forum
{
If ForumVector.UserId //User in forum vector?
Display BtnForumUnsubscribe // Allow unsubscription
Else
Display BtnForumSubscribe // Allow subscription
End if
}
Event BtnForumUnsubscribe
{
Remove ForumVector.UserId
While Not EOF Threads in Forum // Remove any previous "don't mail" entries
If UserId In ThreadVector.UserId
Remove ThreadVector.UserId
End If
End While
}
Event BtnForumSubscribe
{
Append ForumVector.UserId
While Not EOF Threads in Forum // remove any previous "send mail" entries
If UserId In ThreadVector.UserId
Remove ThreadVector.UserId
End If
End While
}
Display Thread
{
If ForumVector.UserId // In Forum
If ThreadVector.UserId // Not subscribed to thread
Display BtnThreadSubscribe
Else // Subscribed to thread
Display BtnThreadUnsubscribe
End If
Else //Not in Forum
If ThreadVector.UserId // Subscribed to thread
Display BtnThreadLeave
Else
Display BtnThreadJoin
End If
End If
}
Event BtnThreadSubscribe // User is in Forum
{
Remove ThreadVector.UserId
}
Event BtnThreadUnsubscribe // User is in Forum
{
Append ThreadVector.UserId
}
Event BtnThreadJoin // User is not on Forum
{
Append ThreadVector.UserId
}
Event BtnThreadLeave // User is not on Forum
{
Remove ThreadVector.UserId
}
MailSend (Item,Forum,Thread)
{
While not EOF ForumVector.UserID Not In ThreadVector.UserID
SendItem(Item, ForumVector.UserID.UserId)
End While
While not EOF ThreadVector.UserID Not In ForumVector.UserID
SendItem(Item, ThreadVector.UserId)
End While
}
EditUser
{
// Construct Tree
While Not EOF Forums
If UserId in ForumVector //User in Forum
Add Leaf[0] Forum + SubscribedIcon + BtnUForumUnsubscribe
While Not EOF Threads in Forum
If UserId in ForumVector
Add Leaf[1] Thread + UnsubscribedIcon + BtnUThreadSubscribe
Else
Add Leaf[1] Thread + SubscribedIcon + BtnUThreadUnsubscribe
End If
End While // Not EOF Threads in Forum
Else // User Not in Forum
Add Leaf[0] Forum + UnSubscribedIcon + BtnUForumSubscribe
While Not EOF Threads in Forum
If UserId in ForumVector
Add Leaf[1] Thread + SubscribedIcon + BtnUThreadLeave
Else
Add Leaf[1] Thread + UnsubscribedIcon + BtnUThreadJoin
End If
End While // Not EOF Threads in Forum
End If
End While // Not EOF Forums
}
Event BtnUForumSubscribe //Subscribes user to all threads
{
Append ForumVector.UserId
While Not EOF Threads in Forum
If ForumVector.UserId In ThreadVector.UserId
Remove ThreadVector.UserId
End If
End While
}
Event BtnUForumUnsubscribe //Unsubscribes user from all threads
{
Remove ForumVector.UserId
While Not EOF Threads in Forum
If ForumVector.UserId In ThreadVector.UserId
Remove ThreadVector.UserId
End If
End While
}
Event BtnUThreadSubscribe // User is in Forum
{
Remove ThreadVector.UserId
}
Event BtnUThreadUnsubscribe // User is in Forum
{
Append ThreadVector.UserId
}
Event BtnUThreadJoin // User is not on Forum
{
Append ThreadVector.UserId
}
Event BtnUThreadLeave // User is not on Forum
{
Remove ThreadVector.UserId
}
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #24 on: 2002-01-31 04:33:29 » |
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Please see the corrections made to the pseudocode above. Thanks
Regards
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #25 on: 2002-01-31 14:01:54 » |
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[Hermit 1*] Please note that an updated version of the pseudocode has been posted. I would appreciate feedback on whether this would address your reservations or if you would suggest changes, additions or deletions?
[Raven 1] A notify button on the second-level index would be good too, I think.
(ie. on 'test' as well as on 'test1' and 'test2')
[Hermit 2] I'm not sure what you mean. As it stands, a "Forum" is e.g. "Suggestion Box" or "Test Area", a "Thread" is determined by a subject e.g. currently "A Challenge or two" or "New forum suggestions?" in "Suggestion Box" and "Image test", "First Poll" and "HTML test" in "Test Area." What would correlate to the "second-level index"?
[Raven 1] Two variants spring to mind - either "follow all threads in this topic" or "tell me when there are new threads in this topic". (To be available in parallel, the former being essentially an auto-subscribe to any new threads, the latter being obvious.)
[Hermit 2] Again I'm a bit befuddled - but it might be the snow or lack of sleep.
[Hermit 2] The proposed behavior (see pseudo code) allows you to:
1 Subscribe to a Forum and receive all mail from it.
2 While subscribed to a Forum you will automagically get all existing and new thread traffic from it unless you choose to unsubscribe from a particular thread.
3 Unsubscribe from a Forum and receive no mail from it.
4 Subscribe to a particular thread (i.e. not to the forum) and receive traffic only from that thread.
[Hermit 2] In all cases where mail would otherwise be sent, you may choose to block a particular poster (default BBS behavior) and simply not receive that mail.
This could be summarized as:
| Subscribed Forum | Y | N | Y | N | | Subscribed Thread | Y | Y | N | N | | Send Post | Y | Y | N | N |
[Hermit 2] Noting that the meaning of a UserId being in the ThreadVector switches depending on whether or not the UserId is present in the Forum Vector.
[Hermit 2] In the light of the above, would you like to try to redescribe your proposals. If I understood what you were saying, the first is the default "subscribe to forum behavior" (although you would have to be aware of the existence of the forum). Perhaps a "Forum creation announcement" as a one time mailing to all potential BBS members. The second would not be automatic, but all you would need to do to "make-it-so" would be to unsubscribe from a given thread after receiving the first message from a thread from a subscribed forum.
[Hermit 2] The second behavior could be added but would require a fair level of complexity (in the sense that it would best be handled by flags at the thread level) which I cunningly removed in order to minimize processing during the MailSend routine.
Regards
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Table Troubles
« Reply #26 on: 2002-01-31 15:38:38 » |
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The Table command seems to take the carriage returns from a structured layout and apply them above the start of the table. Very annoying behavior.
See:
Code:
[table]
[tr]
[td]a[/td]
[td]b[/td]
[td]c[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]d[/td]
[td]e[/td]
[td]f[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]h[/td]
[td]i[/td]
[td]j[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
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Now compare this:
Code:
[table][tr][td]a[/td][td]b[/td][td]c[/td][/tr][tr][td]d[/td][td]e[/td][td]f[/td][/tr][tr][td]h[/td][td]i[/td][td]j[/td][/tr][/table]
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #27 on: 2002-02-01 21:45:35 » |
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[Hermit 2] Answers in-line.
[RavenBlack 2] Ah, sorry, my fault - I was looking at the bbs rather than the pseudocode, and saw the 'notify' thing that I hadn't spotted before, my description being based on that. In terms of your email:
[Hermit 1] 1 Subscribe to a Forum and receive all mail from it.
[Hermit 1] 2 While subscribed to a Forum you will automagically get all existing and new thread traffic from it unless you choose to unsubscribe from a particular thread.
[Hermit 1] 3 Unsubscribe from a Forum and receive no mail from it.
[Hermit 1] 4 Subscribe to a particular thread (i.e. not to the forum) and receive traffic only from that thread.
[RavenBlack 2] Add:
5 Half-subscribe to a Forum, with behaviour as with unsubscribed, but also receive notification of the beginning of a new thread, so you know that there *are* threads you might wish to subscribe to.
[Hermit 2] This one is easy. Basically adding a flag for "not sent" and if so testing for "head of thread" - if it is, it would then send it unless it was from a "blocked sender."
[Hermit 1] In all cases where mail would otherwise be sent, you may choose to block a particular poster (default BBS behavior) and simply not receive that mail.
[RavenBlack 2] Blocking subsidiary threads of blocked posters might be nice too.
[Hermit 2] I agree that this would be nice too, but think that this might be very tricky to implement efficiently in an off-the shelf system (unless possibly by adding an X-ThreadSenderVector to each thread). The trouble is (assuming no X-ThreadSenderVector*) is that it requires storage by thread and user or requires a search on each message processed (even with an X-ThreadSenderVector) in the blocked list for all antecedents. Expensive in either storage or processing time.
[Hermit 2] *An X-ThreadSenderVector would have the disadvantage that it could be spoofed and wouldn't help for some users (like me) who copy the message to hotmail to make replies.
[RavenBlack 2] How is threading done when messages are by email? Inserting thread IDs into subject lines (or reply-to's) might make the threading a lot more effective without requiring visits to the site.
[Hermit 2] Usually by the "In-Reply-To" field, but in this case it seems to be done simply on subject line as it files my posts correctly even though I remove all headers (along with all mime content) before replying.
[RavenBlack 2] Such that a new message thread might be from "virus-592@lucifer.com"; replies would go to that address, and then would come to inboxes from "virus-592-5@lucifer.com" (indicating that it's the fifth reply to thread 592). First reply to that would come from "virus-592-5-1@lucifer.com".
[Hermit 2] I'd need to see the source code in order to determine the viability of doing this. An X-ThreadId/XDepth might be a way to handle it, but as soon as you do this, it it starts to get tricky when headers are lost (see above).
[RavenBlack 2] That way, say Everett posted message 592-5-1, and I was blocking Everett, I wouldn't receive 592-5-1 or 592-5-1-1 or 592-5-1-1-5 or... etc. And thus I would avoid the annoyance of seeing half an argument go on. (some sort of numerical collapsing system to reduce virus-592-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 to something less silly would be incumbent too, I suppose.)
[Hermit 2] As you say, it could get messy. Certainly this wouldn't work for most outlook users who tend to sort mail into folders by sender/recipient and where the "Reply-to" field is also used by their mail program.
[RavenBlack 2] If you already have a working mechanism for threading the email-sent messages, ignore the bit about from-addresses (doing similar with subject lines would work, too, since people rarely change those. Perhaps subject line *and* reply-to; if you change the subject line, it gets noted at the end of the original thread ("replies continued in thread X") and a new thread begins. Hmm.)
[RavenBlack 2] Sorry that's a bit gibbery and unclear - thinking aloud. I could implement such a system with qmail. Not sure how easy it would be with other mail-servers.
[Hermit 2] I begin to wonder if it would not be simpler and easier to use a private NNTP server? You choose to download based on thread, sender and subject?
[Hermit 2] Even better to use a distributed database. I have seriously considered this for mail handling before - but would require a custom client to use it... which implies portability problems.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #28 on: 2002-02-08 03:03:48 » |
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1) Spelling Module now available for yabb http://boardmod.yabbforum.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=newssp&action=display&num=1013108737
2) Still having length problems when trying to preview here before posting via mail in order to check formating. Because of this am not always doing so and am seeing some "sad" results.
3) Still sometimes having trouble editing posts, e.g. Long one today in reply to Joe Dees does not offer me an edit button. And it needs editing. Unfortunately, I know he is going to reply to it. So the bad formatting will be perpetuated. Perhaps there should be the option of posting here, editing and then releasing the post to the list when it is complete? A kind of self-moderation ability.
4) Is it possible to do a grep to nail all single LFs from posts to get rid of wrapping here, while leaving it in posts to the lists? See my previous suggestion for a "tidy button".
5) I'm still hoping to see an "easy cross reference to other posts" insertion tool (i.e. open a new window, scroll to the post, select it (and optionaly select a paragraph) and drop in a clickable reference in the post under construction.
6) How difficult would it be to switch to using ISO date format for display here?
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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David Lucifer
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Enlighten me.
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #29 on: 2002-02-08 12:46:58 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-02-08 03:03:48
1) Spelling Module now available for yabb
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I will check it out, thanks.
Quote:
2) Still having length problems when trying to preview here before posting via mail in order to check formating. Because of this am not always doing so and am seeing some "sad" results.
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Just to clarify, length problems due to the small edit box?
Quote:
3) Still sometimes having trouble editing posts, e.g. Long one today in reply to Joe Dees does not offer me an edit button. And it needs editing. Unfortunately, I know he is going to reply to it. So the bad formatting will be perpetuated. Perhaps there should be the option of posting here, editing and then releasing the post to the list when it is complete? A kind of self-moderation ability.
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Yes, I have written the code to send BBS posts back to the mailing list. Will implement as soon as the BBS is announced (because the relayed messages contain a link to the BBS message).
Quote:
4) Is it possible to do a grep to nail all single LFs from posts to get rid of wrapping here, while leaving it in posts to the lists? See my previous suggestion for a "tidy button".
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It is possible, but won't that screw up the formatting of some messages?
Quote:
5) I'm still hoping to see an "easy cross reference to other posts" insertion tool (i.e. open a new window, scroll to the post, select it (and optionaly select a paragraph) and drop in a clickable reference in the post under construction.
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Agreed. I will post a message to the YaBB community to see if anyone is working on it, or if anyone there wants ot do it.
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6) How difficult would it be to switch to using ISO date format for display here?
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Should be very easy. Can you give me an example to work with?
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