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Church of Virus BBS   General   Second Life   Keep on Raging Against Ageing « previous next » Pages: [1]      Author  Topic: Keep on Raging Against Ageing  (Read 2450 times) David Lucifer Archon Posts: 2642 Reputation: 8.94 Rate David Lucifer Enlighten me. Keep on Raging Against Ageing « on: 2006-12-18 16:34:43 » vector: Eugen Leitl (aka Terence McKenna in SL, "You" in the transcript) source: ExI list Monday, December 18 at 19:00 CET (13:00 EST, 10:00 PST) Anders Sandberg held a multimedial (with the handicap of audio lagging by one minute, which he handled excellently) talk called "Keep on raging against ageing", of which I'm posting a partial transcript, including lead-in and trailing sessions. Discussion was a bit rowdy, but keep in mind that this is a new medium without established means of social feedback yet. I hope this event wasn't the last one, and that we'll see more participation (ahem, this means you) on uvvy events in future. [7:52]  Giulio Perhaps is Online [7:52]  Giulio Perhaps: someone else speaking? (girl) [7:52]  Anders Nadir: I'm reminded of the early VR studies that were done while I started university. One of my advisors was really proud of having organized a conference where everybody was a green 'T'. [7:54]  You: Do the clients crash often? [7:56]  You: Yeah, mine did. [7:56]  Anders Nadir: I guess this is a good training of split attention, multitasking and multimodality. [7:57]  Giulio Perhaps: uploaded images, lets go inside to load on screens [7:57]  Waldemar Commerce: Suicidal chic [7:58]  Anders Nadir: Are these screens essentially standard box prims that switch image by touch? [7:59]  Anders Nadir: Maybe I should have done a welcome screen, but it is nice to get right to the data [7:59]  Anders Nadir: Is this better, Hakan? [7:59]  Hakan Triangle: yep [8:00]  There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot. [8:00]  No room to sit here, try another spot. [8:00]  Anders Nadir: So when I'm lecturing, should I ask you "next slide please"? [8:01]  Waldemar Commerce: BTW Anders [8:02]  Giulio Perhaps: ok screen setup is complete [8:02]  Anders Nadir: Well, it is unlikely that you can all read the small details in this aliasing. I'll just have to paste in literature citations. [8:02]  Giulio Perhaps: lets do something for volume [8:02]  Waldemar Commerce: Rock med att snubben hörde av sig om att han skickat till MEPPAR [8:02]  Giulio Perhaps: anders you sure you dont have any hardware sliding control for volume on mic? [8:03]  Anders Nadir: Ah, that might require a bit of translation. Just a small piece of good news, a politician got interested in dealing wit the European Clinical Trials Directive. [8:03]  Anders Nadir: The ECT is *stupid*. [8:04]  Anders Nadir: The ECT manages to with a minimum of regulation cause an extreme amount of paperwork and cost. Like 700% increase in reporting of *possible* side effects, which takes a lot of effort. [8:05]  Hakan Triangle: That is a yes I assume [8:07]  Anders Nadir: For the talk, what is your experience of how quickly I should add information. [8:08]  Giulio Perhaps: well in view of sound problem better you dont talk too fast [8:08]  Giulio Perhaps: and try to put mic closer to mouth and speak very loud [8:08]  Anders Nadir: Some odd comments from me are entirely due to the local environments. [8:09]  Anders Nadir: But the key issue is how big chunks of talk I can throw at you. [8:09]  Giulio Perhaps: same as in any lecture [8:09]  Anders Nadir: Ah, I can "select all" in word and just send you 30 pages! :-) [8:10]  Giulio Perhaps: ?? [8:10]  Giulio Perhaps: now you sound a bit louder perhaps yopu put mic closer to mouth [8:10]  Anders Nadir: We have very nice friday seminars in the research group where we discuss the latests (more or less TH) papers. People in philoophy loves to write. [8:12]  Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [8:12]  Anders Nadir: Maybe we should set up some meetings from our EU project here too. [8:12]  Giulio Perhaps: you going to read from text? [8:12]  Anders Nadir: My plan is to paste in sectons of text and read them. But hardly an entire paper. I have some mercy :-) [8:13]  Giulio Perhaps: well then why dont sent text to me I will put online on web [8:13]  Anders Nadir: I think you can get it after the talk, since I no doubt will discover mistakes while talking. [8:13]  You: At least Waldemar is amusing himself. [8:13]  Anders Nadir: Waldemar reminds me of the shingami in "Death Note". [8:13]  Giulio Perhaps: waldemar sit on another chair [8:13]  Waldemar Commerce: OMG I'm trapped by the chair :-) [8:14]  Anders Nadir: Just a little test. [8:16]  Anders Nadir: I guess that once I'm a bit more experience at this I ought to add gestures to the talk text and just paste them in. [8:16]  Giulio Perhaps is Offline [8:17]  Anders Nadir: Just a quick break to prepare myself. [8:19]  Giulio Perhaps is Online [8:19]  Elliot Ehrler: I have to leave in 40 min. So if I suddenly leave, don't be offended. [8:21]  You: Is the event due in 40 minutes, or in 1:40? [8:21]  Giulio Perhaps: had a crash [8:22]  You: Perhaps your machine is underpowered, too. Mine crashed when it ran out of cycles. [8:23]  xyryx Simca: is there an alternate plan if you can't get your sim back up in a timely fashion? [8:23]  You: Hi xyryx. [8:23]  xyryx Simca: Hi TK [8:23]  Giulio Perhaps: xyrix: ?? [8:23]  xyryx Simca: Hi TM! lol [8:24]  xyryx Simca: so it just crashed?? [8:24]  Giulio Perhaps: no my client crashed [8:24]  xyryx Simca: kk [8:24]  xyryx Simca: [8:24]  You: Do you use a Windows client, Giulio? [8:24]  Giulio Perhaps: I have win and mac [8:24]  Giulio Perhaps: now I am using win [8:25]  Giulio Perhaps: I hear anders talking on phone in other room [8:25]  You: I'm also using Win because you mentioned we need Quicktime. Performance is worse than under Windows. [8:25]  Manoj Undercity is Online [8:25]  xyryx Simca: no one [8:26]  xyryx Simca: can't sit there! even the chair has standards! [8:26]  Manoj Undercity: Hey Simca ! [8:26]  xyryx Simca: Hey Manoj! [8:26]  Manoj Undercity: sup man [8:26]  xyryx Simca: can you sit in one of these front seats? [8:26]  Manoj Undercity: let me try [8:26]  xyryx Simca: 5/5 no go [8:27]  xyryx Simca: kk [8:27]  xyryx Simca: guess it wants me to sit back here! lol [8:27]  Manoj Undercity: its working man [8:27]  Manoj Undercity: instead of the butt rest. iright clicked the spine rest [8:27]  Giulio Perhaps: 1:30 [8:28]  Manoj Undercity: kewl roller skates [8:28]  Manoj Undercity: thats it [8:28]  xyryx Simca: you're exactly right! [8:28]  Manoj Undercity: told ya so [8:29]  xyryx Simca: that sure would have taken out the frustration for a lot of ppl at big functions I've been at and you just couldn't sit anywhere! [8:29]  xyryx Simca: why is that? [8:29]  Manoj Undercity: hey glad u could make it for this talk simca ! [8:31]  Manoj Undercity: hey thanks.. lemme get em [8:35]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 6/7 - anders3 [8:35]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [8:36]  Manoj Undercity: weeee [8:36]  xyryx Simca: oh oh! [8:36]  xyryx Simca: Giulio will not be pleased! lol [8:36]  Manoj Undercity: weee yaaay [8:36]  Manoj Undercity: thanks simca [8:36]  Manoj Undercity: he knows my age [8:36]  Giulio Perhaps: not be pleased of what? [8:37]  Giulio Perhaps: (emailing but following this window too) [8:37]  xyryx Simca: I'm thinking age has nothing to do with it [8:37]  Anders Nadir: OK, now I'm back again. A quick meal to get the glucose level up. [8:37]  Manoj Undercity: i agree with u there simca [8:38]  xyryx Simca: Don't you just love playing with ppl that are AWAY? [8:38]  Manoj Undercity: absolutely ! [8:38]  xyryx Simca: or emailing..or eating.. [8:38]  xyryx Simca: such rudimentary needs! [8:38]  Anders Nadir: And it even more fun to play on their paranoia... [8:39]  xyryx Simca: paranoia has it's uses [8:39]  Manoj Undercity: hello Anders.. wish u good luck with the presentation [8:39]  xyryx Simca: brings ppls behavior around due to fear? [8:39]  Anders Nadir: There is an optimal paranoia level, but it is probably uncomputable. [8:39]  Anders Nadir: Thanks! [8:40]  xyryx Simca: we are all uncomputable..that's what insures/assures our current continuance [8:40]  xyryx Simca: but everyone has time to skate? yes? [8:40]  Manoj Undercity: YAAAY [8:41]  xyryx Simca: gawd.. I love lag-free zones! [8:41]  Anders Nadir: Actually, I think we are all computable - it is the paranoia we have to approximate! [8:41]  Manoj Undercity: i have grown so used to my avatar body that i actually have begun to identify with the joy of skating when done by my avatar [8:41]  Anders Nadir: Does you identify with it as soon as you log in, Manoj? [8:42]  Manoj Undercity: yes i do...im almost linked with my avatar now [8:42]  Manoj Undercity: it very wierd [8:42]  Anders Nadir: BTW, what about "The War on Newtonmas" in Wikipedia? It seems to have become somewhat uptight about internet weirdness like that, [8:42]  Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [8:42]  Manoj Undercity: WIKIPEDIA ROX0RS [8:43]  Anders Nadir: I think this is a affordance of the human brain, we identify with our bodies very easily whatever we declare to be "our body". Bodes well for uploading. [8:43]  Giulio Perhaps: I think we are very computable [8:44]  Anders Nadir: And it has good entries for superheroes and BDSM politics. [8:45]  You decline The Palms, Goun (222, 75, 27)FreeIceSkates from xyryx Simca. [8:46]  Anders Nadir: Thanks! [8:47]  Anders Nadir: It is a kind of selforganized criticality. Open spaces are creative, which attracts "parasitism" and problems, which leads to overmoderation, which makes new spaces the creative ones. [8:49]  Anders Nadir: Yes, I think so. Past creative resources get frozen at one point or another - French intellectual salons, WIkipedia or Haldanes early transhumanists - and the next creative cluster builds on them. [8:49]  Giulio Perhaps: very low, but understandable [8:49]  Giulio Perhaps: are you listening to yourself anders? [8:50]  Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [8:50]  Giulio Perhaps: brb [8:50]  Anders Nadir: No I cant hear myself. What settings should I change? [8:50]  Anders Nadir: Have fun! [8:50]  Elliot Ehrler: Bye everybody! [8:50]  Giulio Perhaps is Offline [8:50]  Elliot Ehrler: Thanks! [8:50]  Elliot Ehrler: I have to leave. Too bad I miss the lecture. [8:51]  Waldemar Commerce: Strange I heard myself , with some lag when I spoke [8:52]  Anders Nadir: But a deliberate copybot fpr audiences? [8:53]  Manoj Undercity: yes 20 metre limit for say or shout i dont know [8:53]  Manoj Undercity: copybot can copy anything including avatars [8:53]  Anders Nadir: It seems to be a development of the 'presence' and 'aura' concepts of early VR conferencing models like DIVE. [8:53]  xyryx Simca: using chat? [8:53]  xyryx Simca: anders to me 9m [8:53]  xyryx Simca: say=20m shout=?? more..umm up to 100M??? [8:54]  Manoj Undercity: i dont really remember the range simca.. must ask Giulio [8:54]  Anders Nadir: One feature it had was auditoria that actually amplified ones presence and range. [8:54]  xyryx Simca: anders to me 22m now say something [8:54]  Multi Gadget v1.50.0 by Timeless Prototype [8:54]  Giulio Perhaps is Online [8:56]  xyryx Simca: manoj? [8:56]  xyryx Simca: go halfway between us? [8:56]  Manoj Undercity: okay [8:56]  xyryx Simca: you can tp our audio [8:56]  Manoj Undercity: start test [8:56]  Manoj Undercity: i can hear u simca [8:56]  xyryx Simca: i sound like a phone commercial? [8:56]  xyryx Simca: can you hear me now? [8:57]  xyryx Simca: can anders hear me? [8:57]  Manoj Undercity: can u see simca's text Ander's ? [8:57]  Manoj Undercity: im asking him [8:57]  Anders Nadir: Yes, I can see the IM [8:57]  Manoj Undercity: not the IM, the regular chat [8:57]  Anders Nadir: No, I do not see it in the chat [8:57]  Anders Nadir: So IM links might be essentially arbitrarily long? [8:57]  Manoj Undercity: IM is independent of distance [8:57]  Manoj Undercity: ah ! [8:57]  Manoj Undercity: simca. he cant see your text [8:58]  xyryx Simca: right [8:58]  Manoj Undercity: where r all the people ? [8:58]  Manoj Undercity: so maybe a relay script in the middle would do the trick [8:58]  Manoj Undercity: lemme send a holler to the WTA group here [8:58]  Manoj Undercity: eh ? [8:58]  Anders Nadir: Maybe one could creat loudspeaker script objects? [8:58]  Manoj Undercity: how much longer for starting G ? [8:58]  You: Will we have a sync mark at which we're required to start the Movies channel? [8:59]  Manoj Undercity: yes Anders [8:59]  Anders Nadir: How do we start the movies channels? [8:59]  You: Anders, you probably don't, the audience probably has. [8:59]  Manoj Undercity: im sorry ? [9:00]  You: Manoj: will we need to set a sync mark for audio, for each participant? [9:00]  Manoj Undercity: oh u can hear yourself if u have quicktime and when u press play button in the tab that says movies [9:00]  Manoj Undercity: its right above the text bar where u type text to chat [9:00]  Anders Nadir: Hmm, I seem to lack a movies bar. [9:00]  Manoj Undercity: HD DVD is gonna come..and go ? [9:00]  Manoj Undercity: oh [9:01]  Manoj Undercity: okay.. go to edit - preferences - audio/video tab [9:01]  You: Maybe that's just me, but this chat is worse than useless. This thing needs audio. [9:01]  Anders Nadir: Yes, audio is so much more rich. [9:01]  Manoj Undercity: once there.. click the play streaming audio and streaming media when available [9:01]  Manoj Undercity: it will show up then [9:02]  xyryx Simca: I thought that Giulio said it was thru shoutcast? [9:02]  Anders Nadir: Think I found it. [9:02]  Manoj Undercity: good for u [9:03]  Manoj Undercity: checkmark them [9:03]  xyryx Simca: can you back up10m and see if you hear me [9:03]  Anders Nadir: Yup! [9:03]  Manoj Undercity: Music, Movies [9:03]  Manoj Undercity: yeah Simca ? [9:03]  xyryx Simca: hey manoj? [9:03]  Anders Nadir: Checkmarked. [9:03]  Manoj Undercity: do u see the bars now in your screen ? [9:03]  Manoj Undercity: now u will hear yourself [9:03]  Manoj Undercity: now press play on Movies [9:03]  Anders Nadir: OK, play pressed. [9:03]  Manoj Undercity: okay Simca [9:03]  xyryx Simca: Hello, avatar! [9:04]  xyryx Simca: now Manoj??? [9:04]  Anders Nadir: I can hear myself now, with a one minute delay. I can lecture in canon this way! :-) [9:04]  Manoj Undercity: try again [9:04]  xyryx Simca: 19m [9:04]  xyryx Simca: 20m [9:04]  Manoj Undercity shouts: if i shout i can reach u [9:04]  Manoj Undercity: /whiste [9:05]  xyryx Simca: yes so anders should use shout? just in case some ppl are not set up in preferences to use music/movies enabled? [9:05]  Manoj Undercity: but he isnt gonna type Simca [9:05]  Manoj Undercity: he is gonna speak [9:05]  Manoj Undercity: voice reaches all around uvvy [9:05]  Manoj Undercity: it did last time [9:05]  Manoj Undercity: when Waldemar spoke [9:05]  Giulio Perhaps: due to the delay it would be impossible to type and speak [9:05]  Manoj Undercity: Anders. can u hear yourself now ? [9:05]  xyryx Simca: but some ppl have trouble [9:06]  Anders Nadir: Yes, I can hear myself. [9:06]  Manoj Undercity: kewl [9:06]  Anders Nadir: It is a slightly odd situation to hear oneself with a one minute delay. It is long enough to go outside both the phonological loop and working memory proper. [9:07]  Anders Nadir: Hi Cryonica! [9:07]  Manoj Undercity: neurologists !!!! [9:07]  Cryonica Artizar: HI everybody [9:07]  Anders Nadir: Work related personality damage :-) [9:07]  Manoj Undercity: hi [9:07]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [9:07]  Manoj Undercity: hehe Anders [9:07]  Cryonica Artizar: MAnoj how is everything? [9:08]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 6/7 - anders3 [9:08]  Manoj Undercity: im fine Cryonica.. how is your second life ? [9:08]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [9:08]  WhiteBoard (e): This is the Last Slide [9:08]  Cryonica Artizar: busy [9:08]  WhiteBoard (e): This is the Last Slide [9:08]  Manoj Undercity: nice sweater btw [9:08]  Cryonica Artizar: I have been decorating my house [9:08]  Cryonica Artizar: and rezzed an rerezzed [9:08]  Anders Nadir: Which of them? [9:08]  Cryonica Artizar: I'll be back 4 7 pm [9:08]  Manoj Undercity throws a peanut at Simca [9:09]  Manoj Undercity: cuz I CAN [9:09]  Manoj Undercity: muwahaha [9:09]  Manoj Undercity: oh i wish OneUp would show up [9:09]  Anders Nadir: Who is that? [9:10]  Manoj Undercity: Charles Anderson, the chairman of the WTA chapter here in second life [9:10]  Anders Nadir: Ah. [9:10]  Anders Nadir: So, when should we start? [9:11]  Manoj Undercity: please ask Giulio that question [9:11]  Waldemar Commerce: 19h00 CET [9:11]  Anders Nadir: Sounds OK. I'm still somewhat confused by moving timezone yesterday. [9:11]  You: Do we need to press Moview on 19:00 to get a sync, or is this not necessary? [9:12]  Manoj Undercity: not necessary [9:12]  xyryx Simca: ahhh let your mind wander to the places forbidden by it... [9:12]  Manoj Undercity: but if ur stream stops midway, it is good idea to stop and press play again [9:12]  xyryx Simca: lalala [9:12]  Manoj Undercity: hehe Simca [9:12]  You: Good. The audio stream seems to bring everything to their knees. [9:12]  Manoj Undercity: it shouldnt usually [9:12]  xyryx Simca: oh NO..brought to your knees in SL is not a good thing! [9:13]  Manoj Undercity: al your graphics settings and your cache must be full [9:13]  Manoj Undercity: maybe thats why [9:13]  You: I presume this hardware is borderline, and I need a dual-core. [9:13]  Manoj Undercity: oh lol Simca.. yeah.. not with the Goreans around [9:14]  xyryx Simca: no go for quad core.. heheh [9:14]  Giulio Perhaps: where is cryonica? [9:14]  Manoj Undercity: nano core too while yer at it [9:14]  xyryx Simca: SL is all about rising to the lowest common denominator [9:14]  Manoj Undercity: she was here [9:14]  Manoj Undercity: i have sent her tp [9:15]  Anders Nadir: In general there is no limits to the number of cores needed, we (and the OS) will fill them all. [9:15]  Manoj Undercity: brb [9:15]  Manoj Undercity: a nice point ! [9:16]  Manoj Undercity: brb [9:16]  xyryx Simca: so anyone do croquet..take a look? [9:16]  Manoj Undercity: afk [9:16]  Giulio Perhaps: no need to sync, it is a stream - everyone hears the same thing at the same time [9:16]  Giulio Perhaps: only we hear anders 1 min after he speaks [9:16]  Anders Nadir: I'm one minute in the future. [9:16]  Giulio Perhaps: not very impressed by croquet [9:17]  Giulio Perhaps: much more impressed by multiverse [9:17]  Anders Nadir: Or was thast the past? [9:17]  xyryx Simca: remember the problems some peeps had at the transvision06? [9:17]  You: Croquet is a different architecture. [9:17]  Giulio Perhaps: was due to old streaming server [9:17]  xyryx Simca: Catherine Omega seems taken by Croquet.. but says the popular vr will succeed not the best [9:17]  xyryx Simca: but ...well [9:18]  xyryx Simca: and Areae? [9:18]  You: Of course Croquet has issues: it needs a deterministic physics in each node, and it syncs diffs. [9:18]  Giulio Perhaps: seen multiverse? [9:18]  You: It is limited to what Smalltalk can do, which is not a lot. [9:18]  xyryx Simca: no G [9:18]  You: No, what's the URL for multiverse? [9:19]  Giulio Perhaps: multiverse.net [9:19]  Giulio Perhaps: you can try the beta [9:19]  Giulio Perhaps: multiverse = une wavefunction for many worlds = one client for many virtual worlds [9:19]  You: Bookmarked. Thans, Giulio. [9:20]  xyryx Simca: well, but isn't that the direction that IBM would like to go in? [9:20]  Giulio Perhaps: yes - using multiverse [9:20]  xyryx Simca: but then many ppl think is an impossibility [9:20]  Giulio Perhaps: not one client for ALL VR worlds, but one client for MANY VR worlds [9:20]  Giulio Perhaps: about IBM, I was at their launch party in SL [9:21]  xyryx Simca: but at diff times? [9:21]  Giulio Perhaps: impressive. they are spending a lot of money here [9:21]  xyryx Simca: some ppl say the execs are getting caught up in the base(ics) [9:21]  xyryx Simca: just want to PARTY [9:22]  Giulio Perhaps: one top exec was partying with virtual champagne and dancing [9:22]  xyryx Simca: 12 sims for IBM and NOAA is going to washington to get backing for their 25 sims [9:22]  xyryx Simca: I vote for NOAA [9:22]  xyryx Simca: and wish Troy McLuhan had not just gone on holiday yesterday [9:22]  Giulio Perhaps: I vote for IBM [9:23]  Giulio Perhaps: NOAA is bureaucracy, ppl sitting on their asses and girls doing nails [9:23]  xyryx Simca: why [9:23]  xyryx Simca: HUH! [9:24]  xyryx Simca: later I take you on the tour of NOAA sims if he didn't screw up my access [9:24]  xyryx Simca: so much potential to tie it all together [9:24]  xyryx Simca: sry [9:24]  xyryx Simca: too much coffee [9:24]  Giulio Perhaps: Right, but unfortunately a big gov ord is not the right org to do things dynamically [9:24]  xyryx Simca: yeah I'm here to RAGE! lol [9:25]  Giulio Perhaps: (and they call me a commie) [9:25]  xyryx Simca: arghhhh [9:25]  xyryx Simca: prolly don't like NASA either doya? [9:25]  Anders Nadir: Read _Zenith Angle_ by Bruce Sterling? He has some interesting rants about government agencies and software security. [9:25]  Giulio Perhaps: I worked with nasa for a few months [9:26]  Giulio Perhaps: 15 yrs ago [9:26]  Giulio Perhaps: it was already very different from teh nasa of the 60s [9:26]  You: xyryx, do you know how annoying abrvs can be? [9:26]  xyryx Simca: yes [9:26]  Giulio Perhaps: and now it is even more different [9:26]  xyryx Simca: toured Dryden last year [9:26]  xyryx Simca: impressive [9:26]  Giulio Perhaps: abrvs??? [9:26]  You: Please try to expand whenever possible. Thank you. [9:27]  Anders Nadir: Is nasa as bad with powerpoint as Tufte claims? [9:27]  xyryx Simca: Okay. [9:28]  Cryonica Artizar: ciao giulio [9:29]  You: Giulio, is there no realtime (no 1 min delay) audio conferencing technology available that would scale to 40 people? [9:30]  Manoj Undercity: cryonica.. u seem to b floating [9:30]  Cryonica Artizar: really? [9:30]  Giulio Perhaps: yes - highspeedconferencing (skype plugin) [9:30]  Giulio Perhaps: Bot for some reason quality is bad for some people [9:31]  Manoj Undercity: not anymore Cryonica [9:31]  Giulio Perhaps: thats why we are not using it now [9:31]  Manoj Undercity: where is Simca ? [9:31]  Giulio Perhaps: I wanted to use it, and made a few tests [9:31]  Cryonica Artizar: I have managed to sit down [9:31]  Giulio Perhaps: for most people it worls well, but not for everyone [9:31]  Manoj Undercity: is he talking now ? [9:31]  Manoj Undercity: i cant hear him [9:31]  Anders Nadir: No, not right now. [9:31]  Manoj Undercity: oh okie dokie [9:31]  Anders Nadir: Or rather, NOW. [9:32]  Giulio Perhaps: someone outside [9:33]  Manoj Undercity: okie dokie. i can hear him [9:33]  Anders Nadir: Ecellent. [9:35]  Cryonica Artizar: Should we switch on Skype? [9:35]  Manoj Undercity: no no [9:35]  Manoj Undercity: continue with quicktime [9:35]  You: Standard Skype scales to 4 people only, I thought. [9:35]  Cryonica Artizar: Just movies? [9:35]  Manoj Undercity: G is saying for Anders i guess [9:35]  Manoj Undercity: yes Cryonica [9:36]  You: How's your Coke, Waldemar? [9:36]  Giulio Perhaps: yes but highspeedconferencing is an extension of skypecast good (they say) for 100 ppl and more [9:36]  Cryonica Artizar: Anders and Waldemar look like twins [9:36]  Giulio Perhaps: I hope to use that for next talk [9:36]  Waldemar Commerce: Pretty good, but I prefer Pepsi [9:37]  Manoj Undercity: lol [9:37]  Waldemar Commerce: OMG it is in here too, ANders! [9:37]  You: Giulio: is the skype plugin for-profit? Expensive? [9:37]  Waldemar Commerce: Its the infamous Eudoxa cloning process [9:37]  Manoj Undercity: welcome back Simca [9:38]  Manoj Undercity: G. please stand beside anders and Wlademar [9:38]  xyryx Simca: okay, I had my oxytocin bolus..love and peace to all I see for the next 20 min guaranteed! lol [9:39]  Manoj Undercity: lol okay Simca [9:40]  You: Skypecasts seem to be still free. [9:41]  Anders Nadir: Thanks, Waldemar. [9:42]  Anders Nadir: Well, we Eudoxa people are parts of a borganism anyway. [9:43]  IM: Manoj Undercity: Anders Sandberg is going to talk in a few minutes on raging against aging live ! all interested people may come to uvvy island conference room and watch ! [9:43]  IM: Second Life: Manoj Undercity has left this session. [9:44]  Manoj Undercity: ASSIMILATION [9:45]  Anders Nadir: Resistance is futile, you will be think tanked. [9:45]  Manoj Undercity: hehe [9:46]  Manoj Undercity: hey Jpsy.. over here [9:46]  Manoj Undercity: Jopsy [9:46]  Manoj Undercity: hey Lucifer is here ! [9:46]  Lucifer Darrow: Greetings, all [9:46]  Anders Nadir: Hi! [9:46]  Lucifer Darrow bows [9:46]  Giulio Perhaps: hi! [9:46]  Manoj Undercity: greetings Lucifer [9:47]  xyryx Simca: come in for a sec? [9:47]  Manoj Undercity: Ian ! [9:48]  Lucifer Darrow: I will be broadcasting the talk to an IRC channel on lucifer.com if that's OK [9:48]  xyryx Simca: kk [9:48]  Ian Sterling: Hey Manjoy!! greaty to see you! [9:48]  Manoj Undercity: so u will have a log Lucifer ? [9:48]  Lucifer Darrow nods [9:48]  Manoj Undercity: great to see u as well Ian ! [9:48]  xyryx Simca: you should at least meet Giulio [9:48]  Manoj Undercity: wish Mo were here [9:48]  Manoj Undercity: and Sat [9:48]  xyryx Simca: it's his sim [9:48]  Lucifer Darrow: I think Sat will attend via IRC [9:49]  Manoj Undercity: great ! [9:49]  Manoj Undercity: he wont be able to hear though [9:49]  Anders Nadir: So will we see IRC somewhere here too? [9:49]  #uvvy: Lucifer: yes [9:49]  xyryx Simca: kk he's here whenever [9:49]  Manoj Undercity: hello Madame Denise [9:49]  Anders Nadir: Hi! [9:49]  #uvvy: Lucifer: I'm in IRC too [9:50]  Manoj Undercity: Simca.. dude.. please sit next to me man [9:50]  Anders Nadir: It is nice to be in so many media at once. I fell quasi-uploaded :-) [9:50]  Manoj Undercity: hehe [9:50]  Giulio Perhaps: can I intro my wife to everyone - Anders met her in Madrid [9:50]  Anders Nadir: Ah, great to see you again! [9:51]  xyryx Simca: Hello, Denise [9:51]  Manoj Undercity: Evalyn just came [9:51]  Denise Kostolany: hi anders nice 2 c u here [9:51]  Manoj Undercity: hi Anne [9:51]  Giulio Perhaps: hi anne [9:51]  Manoj Undercity: the forces r gathering..muwahaha [9:51]  Ian Sterling smiles a greeting to Guilioo's wife [9:51]  Anders Nadir: That just reminded me that I ought to send you the dog photo, as well as the photo of the infamous sip of espresso :-) [9:51]  Denise Kostolany: hi ian [9:53]  Lucifer Darrow: Hey Brunswick [9:53]  Evalyn Dagmar: Hi everyone who said hi...sorry I was adjusting my clothing. [9:54]  Evalyn Dagmar: Hi Guilio [9:54]  Toeter Alva: heez xyryx:)) [9:54]  xyryx Simca: hey Toeter! [9:54]  Toeter Alva: hi giulio [9:55]  Giulio Perhaps: hi toeter [9:55]  Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [9:56]  increase Hermes: Is this where Anders will be talking? [9:56]  Giulio Perhaps: anne did you meet anders? [9:56]  Manoj Undercity: yes Hermes [9:56]  Anders Nadir: Yes, at least I plan to. [9:56]  Evalyn Dagmar: I've met him once IRL actually but not in SL [9:56]  Evalyn Dagmar: HI Anders [9:56]  Anders Nadir: Hi [9:56]  Evalyn Dagmar: glad to see so many people here! [9:57]  Giulio Perhaps: lets wait a few more min [9:57]  Anders Nadir: Yes, it is crowding up nicely. [9:57]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [9:57]  #uvvy: Sat has joined #uvvy [9:57]  Giulio Perhaps: hi mike glad you could make it [9:57]  Anders Nadir: I have no problem waiting. For once my body doesn't get tired by standing up! :-) [9:57]  Evalyn Dagmar: Is this going to be an audio talk? [9:57]  IntLibber Brautigan: Thanks, good to see so many folks here [9:58]  Giulio Perhaps: yes [9:58]  Anders Nadir: Yes, it is adio too. [9:58]  xyryx Simca: turn off music button [9:58]  Giulio Perhaps: ok - hit play on movie control (not music control) for the audio stream [9:58]  xyryx Simca: turn on movie button [9:58]  Giulio Perhaps: anders' mic is not very loud unfortunately [9:58]  #uvvy: Sat is back (gone 01:04:45) [9:58]  Giulio Perhaps: his voice will be loud [9:58]  Manoj Undercity: im sitting beside u on hover chair [9:59]  Manoj Undercity: oops [9:59]  Giulio Perhaps: but understandable [9:59]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [9:59]  Toeter Alva: woopxx [9:59]  WhiteBoard (e): This is the Last Slide [9:59]  Giulio Perhaps: and don't forget there is a 1 minute delay between what he says and what we hear [9:59]  Anders Nadir: Is the whiteboard changing my slides of its own? [9:59]  Evalyn Dagmar: I hear music right now [9:59]  Waldemar Commerce: put in some music on the TV radio or steroe [9:59]  Giulio Perhaps: best thing is ask questions (by text chat) during the presentation [9:59]  Giulio Perhaps: he will answer after « Last Edit: 2006-12-18 17:07:11 by David Lucifer » Report to moderator   Logged David Lucifer Archon Posts: 2642 Reputation: 8.94 Rate David Lucifer Enlighten me. Re:Keep on Raging Against Ageing « Reply #1 on: 2006-12-18 16:35:27 » [10:00]  Anders Nadir: Im rather fond of tangents too, so some questions might work during the chat. [10:00]  Giulio Perhaps: now only 8 persons are listening to the audio stream [10:00]  Cryonica Artizar: I can hear you perfectly [10:01]  increase Hermes: How do I turn on audio? [10:01]  Giulio Perhaps: hi goomba [10:01]  Brunswick Warburton: i dont see the boards changing but i hear ya [10:01]  Evalyn Dagmar: Press play on movie control [10:01]  Giulio Perhaps: I repeat, hit play on movie control [10:01]  Evalyn Dagmar: Cool, I can hear it [10:01]  Anders Nadir: Great to hear! [10:01]  Evalyn Dagmar: Go to preferences [10:01]  Giulio Perhaps: if you are hearing music instead of anders, then you hit play on music control [10:01]  Manoj Undercity: okay shush me [10:01]  #uvvy: Sat: There's three of us here via irc in #uvvy, and we're logging. [10:01]  increase Hermes: What movie control? [10:01]  Evalyn Dagmar: select play streaming video when available [10:01]  Manoj Undercity: lets all sing together.. SMOKE ON THE WATER FIRE IN DA SKY [10:01]  Manoj Undercity: [10:01]  Giulio Perhaps: in this case, stop music and play movie [10:01]  Waldemar Commerce: The box named movies [10:01]  Ian Sterling: to turn on movie sound I had to click on right movie button and then wait for a minute to hear anything [10:02]  #uvvy: eugen has joined #uvvy [10:02]  Giulio Perhaps: How many from IRC? [10:02]  Manoj Undercity grabs Sat and slamdunks him into a big something which isnt mine [10:02]  Anders Nadir: Hi Eugen! [10:02]  Giulio Perhaps: For those on IRC: audio URL is http://uvvy.com:7147/listen.pls [10:02]  #uvvy: Lucifer: did anyone invite the folks from #sl4? [10:02]  Giulio Perhaps: Hi Melanie [10:02]  #uvvy: Sat: 4 so far [10:02]  Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [10:02]  #uvvy: Sat: nope [10:02]  #uvvy: eugen: Hi Anders -- I'm being present doubly, then. [10:02]  Denise Kostolany: non sento niente, Giulio. [10:02]  Giulio Perhaps: no Lucifer can you do that? [10:03]  Giulio Perhaps: was announced on wta-talk and extropy lists [10:03]  increase Hermes: I clicked play streaming video, but all I hear is typing. [10:03]  Giulio Perhaps: turn your loudspeaker up [10:03]  Denise Kostolany: sta al maximum! [10:04]  Lock toggle: You cannot change lock mode - only AngryBeth Shortbread can. [10:04]  Evalyn Dagmar: ow [10:04]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:04]  Evalyn Dagmar: feedback [10:04]  Manoj Undercity: i sent out a notice a few minutes ago on wta group here [10:04]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:04]  Manoj Undercity: guess it reminded everyone [10:04]  You: Is anyone else having problems listening both to audio and seeing chat? [10:04]  #uvvy: giulio has joined #uvvy [10:05]  #uvvy: giulio: hi goomba and sat [10:05]  #uvvy: Sat: hello giulio [10:05]  Brunswick Warburton: /join #uvvy [10:05]  #uvvy: giulio: got audio url? [10:05]  Evalyn Dagmar: I am seeing chat and hearing audio fine [10:05]  IntLibber Brautigan: /join #uvvy [10:05]  #uvvy: Sat: at work. audio is forbidden [10:05]  Evalyn Dagmar: headphones? [10:05]  Ian Sterling: yes you do need to sing.. [10:05]  IntLibber Brautigan: testing [10:05]  IntLibber Brautigan: /testing [10:05]  increase Hermes: does joining help? How do I join? [10:05]  Denise Kostolany: anders you can even sing! [10:06]  IntLibber Brautigan: what channel is the irc piping on? [10:06]  Giulio Perhaps: lets wait 5 min then we can start [10:06]  #uvvy: eugen changed the topic to http://uvvy.com:7147/listen.pls [10:06]  Giulio Perhaps: #uvvy on irc.lucifer.com server [10:07]  Giulio Perhaps: melanie why are you covering your face? [10:07]  Anders Nadir: This is the first time I had to worry about clippng planes when lecturing. [10:07]  Xantha Oe: time for a change [10:07]  xyryx Simca: lol [10:07]  Giulio Perhaps: I have 14 people on audio channel, two missing [10:07]  xyryx Simca: time warped [10:07]  Anders Nadir: Yes, a good challenge for the brain. [10:07]  increase Hermes: will the audio come on the mucis stream? [10:07]  tavi Tuck: i can't get it to work [10:08]  Giulio Perhaps: no increase - on movie stream [10:08]  xyryx Simca: rofl..in the Big Vacuum with only yourself to listen to [10:08]  #uvvy: Cuillins has joined #uvvy [10:08]  Giulio Perhaps: hit play on movie control [10:08]  #uvvy: Cuillins: Hello all [10:08]  #uvvy: Sat: howdy [10:08]  #uvvy: Cuillins: I am Ian Sterling in  SL [10:08]  Giulio Perhaps: hallo cuillins [10:08]  Evalyn Dagmar: hi [10:09]  increase Hermes: good morning. [10:09]  #uvvy: Cuillins smiles to everyone and finds a quiet seat [10:09]  Giulio Perhaps: now 20 people, 18 on audio channel [10:09]  IntLibber Brautigan: I'm getting a graphic at irc.lucifer.com, no way to log into an irc client [10:09]  xyryx Simca: hehehe! [10:09]  #uvvy: eugen: Giulio, do you now have one more audio stream? I'm streaming to a different computer, which seems to be working. [10:10]  #uvvy: Cuillins: I have a  solid audio stream  from SL [10:10]  increase Hermes: Thanks. That seems to have worked. (I found the movie control) [10:10]  Manoj Undercity: steam engines r hawt [10:10]  Lucifer Darrow: Use an IRC client, IntLibber [10:10]  Giulio Perhaps: eugen audio stream is http://uvvy.com:7147/listen.pls [10:10]  #uvvy: Cuillins: I am doing it all on  one puter [10:10]  Evalyn Dagmar: For next time, perhaps we should make a slide to show at the very beginning with instructions for streaming audio written on it. [10:10]  Giulio Perhaps: ok anders, start in 2 min (your time;-) [10:11]  Anders Nadir: My first lecture just using a video link was a total flop, a few years back. It took about two years of that course before we finally got it working. [10:11]  xyryx Simca: crazed laughter [10:11]  Anders Nadir: Good idea about the slide show with instructions. [10:11]  xyryx Simca: then try the first one again [10:12]  xyryx Simca: I'll IM Guilio [10:12]  xyryx Simca: oops [10:12]  #uvvy: Cuillins: we really need  courses on all this communications to save 100 of hours of confusion in communication [10:12]  #uvvy: Sat raises an eyebrow [10:12]  Giulio Perhaps: is someone recording anders' talk? [10:12]  Anders Nadir: I'm thinking a bit of mouse based gesture control of gestures could be useful. [10:12]  Giulio Perhaps: easy to do with VLC [10:13]  Ian Sterling settles to listen [10:13]  #uvvy: Sat sips coffee and programs thermal printers while waiting [10:14]  Evalyn Dagmar: <- is on vacation from work, hooray [10:14]  Giulio Perhaps: david can you change message displayed by IRC gateway? [10:14]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:14]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:14]  Manoj Undercity breaks the coffee pots and watches it ooze thru Sat's printers [10:14]  Anders Nadir: I have spent the day as slavedriver for a friend. [10:14]  Giulio Perhaps: just put #uvvy channel on IRC at lucifer.com or something like that [10:14]  Giulio Perhaps: hi meleah [10:14]  Brunswick Warburton: are you using microsoft windows, sir? [10:14]  #uvvy: Sat: Manoj don't make me log on and grief you. [10:14]  #uvvy: Lucifer changed the topic to irc.lucifer.com:6667/#uvvy [10:15]  Manoj Undercity shuts up pronto [10:15]  Giulio Perhaps: ok all those who came in the last 2-3 min [10:15]  Giulio Perhaps: anders will start on one min [10:15]  Giulio Perhaps: please tune in audio stream hitting play on movie control (not music control) [10:15]  Giulio Perhaps: direct audio url is http://uvvy.com:7147/listen.pls [10:15]  #uvvy: Cuillins: brb  getting coffee [10:15]  Anders Nadir: Note that my talk is a bit intermittent right now on the audio. [10:15]  #uvvy: eugen: David, don't change the topic. The url for the audio is important. [10:16]  Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [10:16]  #uvvy: Lucifer changed the topic to http://uvvy.com:7147/listen.pls [10:16]  Giulio Perhaps: OK Anders, did you start? [10:16]  Anders Nadir: Just tell me when to start. [10:17]  Giulio Perhaps: go fetch 2 ppl lost outside [10:17]  Anders Nadir: Normally it is people who get lost in buildings, now it is in software protocols. [10:18]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:18]  Evalyn Dagmar: writing doesn't disappear as soon as it happens like audio does. [10:18]  Anders Nadir: And it tends to force you to be a bit more careful in logic and wording. [10:19]  xyryx Simca: virtual lag [10:20]  Anders Nadir: It is interesting to see that we can still set up a kind of meeting despite the lag - I think human social behavior has the same kind of redundancy as we see in written text. [10:20]  Manoj Undercity is Offline [10:21]  xyryx Simca: redundancy to accomodate tolerance? [10:21]  Evalyn Dagmar: redundancy to accomodate the unexpected. The best-laid plans and all. [10:21]  Anders Nadir: I think it is to accomodate the noise we get in communication. And I guess the same must happen in body labguage too. [10:21]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:22]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:22]  Giulio Perhaps: hi herbert [10:22]  Giulio Perhaps: anders: start [10:22]  Anders Nadir: Thanks! [10:22]  Herbert Hoggard: HI! [10:22]  Evalyn Dagmar: I prefer text-based communication almost all the time, and I hope it never disappears. Complex ideas are better expressed in writing because humans do not have a very reliable verbal memory overall. [10:22]  Anders Nadir: Welcome to this little talk. [10:23]  Anders Nadir: This is going to be about "keep on raging against ageing" [10:23]  Anders Nadir: The dream of eternal youth is as old as mankind. It is not a coincidence that the oldest remaining literary epic is the one about king Gilgamesh's search for the herb of immortality. But the dream is increasingly becoming medical and demographic reality. We live in a rapidly greying society where the average lifespan, health and vigour would have seemed supernatural to king Gilgamesh, whose subjects had a life expectancy at birth around 25 years [10:23]  Anders Nadir: . In lab animals today life is routinely extended and ageing slowed. As researchers increasingly see ageing as something mutable – and hence potentially treatable - we have to start considering how to deal with the changes it will cause in society and our lives. [10:23]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:23]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 7/7 - anders4 [10:24]  Anders Nadir: This talk will be about both the scientific and ethical case for stopping ageing, and some reflections of the intersection between longevity, society and policy. [10:24]  Anders Nadir: So, the case for life extension - the scientific case [10:24]  Anders Nadir: What is ageing? At its core, ageing is a gradual weakening of most of the body's systems. Some lose their abilities to repair themselves, others began to misbehave and there is a general loss of resiliency. We see the symptoms of ageing – grey hair, wrinkles, lack of energy - but the underlying causes have until recently been little studied. [10:25]  Anders Nadir: Why does this happen? The core reason is simply that there is no evolutionary advantage in being non-ageing for most species. In nature the decrepitude of old age is never encountered since the environment is deadly enough that no individual reaches it! Ageing is very much an illness of civilization, a result of living in an unnaturally safe and caring environment. Compared to the alternative it is in fact rather good. [10:25]  Anders Nadir: In nature the survival curve is essentially an exponential decline, where most individuals die before reproducing and most survivors don’t survive much further than that. A gene that conferred longevity would not be selected for even if it meant a longer reproductive period since practically no individuals would survive long enough to take advantage of it [10:25]  #uvvy: Lucifer: The IRC gateway is limited to about 100 characters per line (FYI) [10:26]  Anders Nadir: On the other hand, genes helping survival in early life would be favored even if they had side-effects later on. Hence telomere shortening protect our cells against turning cancerous, but also hinder repair in old age. The production of free radicals is kept under control enough not to kill us early on, but there has never been a need to make it good enough to allow indefinite life. And so on. [10:27]  Anders Nadir: Just a check. Is this speed enough or too fast? [10:27]  Evalyn Dagmar: fine with me [10:27]  Manoj Undercity is Online [10:27]  Giulio Perhaps: good I think [10:27]  Anders Nadir: At least one voice in favor... 2 ones. Well, just interrupt if I go too deep. [10:27]  Anders Nadir: The scientific study of the causes of ageing, biogerontology, is a young science that developed after WW II and was still often ridiculed by researchers from other field as late as the 1970's. What possible use could it have? [10:28]  Anders Nadir: Ageing is natural, and it was said that we needed to treat the many diseases of old age, not aging itself. The field was associated with generations of quacks, alchemists and other suspect characters seeking the elixir of youth. Even today when the field is mature and produces a steady stream of scientific discoveries most researchers are unwilling to speculate on where our knowledge may lead us. They often point out that we do not know any scientifically proven ways of even slowing ageing in humans. But that is just part of the story. [10:28]  Cryonica Artizar: it is good [10:28]  Toeter Alva: its fine [10:28]  Meleah Lilienthal: sounds fine [10:28]  Anders Nadir: Now I need my first slide. [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 6/7 - anders3 [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:29]  increase Hermes: You could go faster. We can read faster tahn we can listen. The bottleneck is typing speed. [10:29]  #uvvy: _Nawi_ has joined #uvvy [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 6/7 - anders3 [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:29]  Anders Nadir: If one plots the life expectancy in the nation with the greatest longevity one gets a straight line over the last 160 years. In 1840 Sweden led by 45 years, today it is Japan with 85 years. The line rises three months each year since 1840. That means we gain 5 hours of life every day! The line is surprisingly steady despite the many different advances contributing: sewers, less child mortality, better food, safer environment, vaccinations and better medical care. The refrigerator, giving us healthy food from afar, probably contributed more than many of the recent medical breakthroughs. [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:29]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:30]  Anders Nadir: Jim Oeppen and James W. Vaupel, Broken Limits to Life Expectancy, Science 10 May 2002: Vol. 296. no. 5570, pp. 1029 - 1031 http://www.demogr.mpg.de/publications/files/brokenlimits.htm [10:30]  Anders Nadir: Just a lit reference. [10:30]  Anders Nadir: Experts have time and again estimated limits to this trend: the curve has to stop somewhere. So far they have been wrong. On average their predictions are proven too pessimistic just five years after being made. This is unsettling, since it suggests that the models used to plan our pension systems and health care likely underestimate how long the people of the future will live. If the current trend continues for 60 more years the average lifespan in 2066 will be around a hundred years. But there are reasons to think this is an underestimate, because ageing itself is now under attack. [10:31]  Anders Nadir: Ageing is not inevitable: there are animals that do not appear to age, from sharks to Galapagos turtles. They grow older, but they do not grow weaker. Another piece of biological evidence shows that animals that have longer lifespan can evolve from species with short lifespan very quickly. Whatever the secret of their longevity is, evolution can find it easily when the conditions are right. In the laboratory there are now many ways of changing lifespan of animals. Genetic modifications of nematode worms, fruit flies and mice have demonstrated genetic changes that prolong life (up to six times in the worms, and by 30% in the mice). The underlying genetics of ageing is slowly coming into focus, involving regulating growth hormone, stress handling and metabolism. [10:32]  Anders Nadir: Benjamin Franklin once said “To lengthen thy life, lessen thy meals”. He was entirely right: since the 1930's it has been known that rats and mice that were given about 40% less food than they would eat on their own lived about 40% longer. The diet does not just postpone ageing diseases but actually seems to slow ageing itself, and old dieting rodents are far more active than even young normal rodents. “Caloric restriction” has been successfully tried on a variety of other animals, including ongoing trials with rhesus monkeys. A few enthusiastic humans are trying it too, but the willpower to stay on a strict diet is rare and it will take many years to see results. However, by understanding what happens in the body when it adapts to low energy living it is likely we can find out ways of achieving it in other ways, like taking pills that fool it into thinking we are on a strict diet energy-wise. [10:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Script run-time error [10:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Stack-Heap Collision [10:32]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:32]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:32]  Giulio Perhaps: Hi Khannea. Play movie control (not music) for audio, or directly http://uvvy.com:7147/listen.pls [10:32]  Dresden Nakatani: could you type a little less, its dissapearing too fast [10:32]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:33]  Anders Nadir: The new consensus in biogerontology is that ageing is not inevitable. [10:33]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:33]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:33]  Anders Nadir: That bears noting, because it goes again so much established wisdom. Even if one does not expect radical life extension it suggests that the length and possibly shape of life can be changed deliberately. And given human motivation, it is likely that it will. [10:33]  xyryx Simca: Dresden: use chat>history [10:33]  Anders Nadir: The goal is not to prolong illness and weakness, but rather an increased “healthspan”. Interventions that slow ageing in animals do not seem to prolong late-life suffering but increase the length of healthy adult life. If we could get the same benefits as seen today in mice we would go from life expectancy of 78 to 112 years. And these 112-year-olds would (based on what is seen with the mice) likely have the same health as current 78-year olds. Few would be marathon runners, but there would be some. [10:34]  Anders Nadir: This is of course far more conservative than Aubrey de Grey’s SENS approach. His vision is to repair the damage caused by metabolism before it does the long-term pathologies we normally call ageing. Correcting metabolism and genetics is a terribly complex project, just as correcting all the age-related changes in the body. But if Aubrey is right there is just a small set of kinds of damage that needs to be fixed, and if they can be repaired well enough often enough ageing may be slowed and possibly indefinitely postponed. I refer to his excellent website http://www.sens.org/ for more details (and arguments that more or less make much of the rest of my talk redundant). [10:34]  #uvvy: _Nawi_ has left #uvvy [10:35]  IntLibber Brautigan: dresden hit your history button [10:35]  Waldemar Commerce: Check chat history [10:35]  Dresden Nakatani: got it thanks [10:35]  Anders Nadir: One of my own concerns is cognitive ageing, the gradual changes that occur over lifespan in how the brain functions. Old people in general do not suffer as much memory impairment as is commonly claimed (it is mostly an effect of slower neural function making them less able to handle fixed time limits on memory tests), but it could be that there are genetic programs that reduce our learning capacity as we age. I have a paper with João Pedro de Magalhães (Cognitive aging as an extension of brain development: A model linking learning, brain plasticity, and neurodegeneration in the October issue of Mechanisms of Ageing and Development, number 126.) 2005 about this possibility. If it is true, then we need to fix this in addition to the basic ageing damage. [10:35]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:36]  Anders Nadir: But this is also relevant to deal with in terms of cognitive enhancement anyway. An important possibility worth remembering is that in the future we should not expect old minds to be be grey and dusty: at the very least they should retain their capacities (otherwise there would be no point in life extension), and it seems plausible to create medications that make them “younger” and more energetic. Youthful idealism might be something you decide to get at any point of life. This of course upsets the traditional ideas about how elderly are. [10:36]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:36]  Anders Nadir: One research area I have been involved in together with Nick Bostrom is using evolution as a guide to what kinds of enhancements are likely to be troublesome or successful. The basic approach is to ask “if this is such a good thing, why has not evolution already done it?” If it seems like it would have increased fitness in the environment of evolutionary adaptation and we do not have it, then something is wrong – either we are wrong about its utility in nature, or there is some hidden drawback. But if it would not have increased fitness, then we at least know why evolution had not selected for it. [10:37]  WhiteBoard (e): Showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [10:37]  Anders Nadir: Ageing is one such trait, and one of the best researched. We know it is evolvable, and that lifespans can be lengthened by selection fairly quickly. There is also reasonably good evidence that there is no selection pressure for more than enough longevity in natural environments but that it can evolve if the environment changes. This suggests that the evolutionary heuristic gives it a fairly clear green light. It doesn’t mean fixing ageing is going to be easy, or that the methods used will not run into problems, but it means that there are very likely no biological reason it cannot be done. [10:38]  Anders Nadir: Ethics of life extension [10:38]  Anders Nadir: Is more life a good thing? [10:38]  Anders Nadir: Ethical approaches can be character based (“what kind of person do I want to be?”), will based (“what should I want to want?”) and action based (“what actions are good?”). [10:38]  Anders Nadir: Approaching them in reverse order, would the action of developing life extension produce more happiness or some other good? From a purely utilitarian perspective more human life is likely beneficial. Avoiding the pains and infirmities of out of control ageing would also be good. As discussed later, there are also likely sizeable economic gains to be made collectively. [10:38]  Manoj Undercity: hey Onyx [10:38]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [10:39]  Anders Nadir: There are also many concerns commonly raised about bad effects of life extension. It could lead to ennui, lack of will to excel, intergenerational conflicts, overpopulation, tyrants would never die, society and culture would need to change tremendously, and so on. [10:39]  Anders Nadir: Many of these concerns are based on empirical possibilities. Life extension might change the value of life this way or that. It might change society in an undesirable direction (risk aversion)… or a desirable one (living longer means taking a longer view). These concerns cannot be adequately judged today, when we can hardly predict the effects of something far less profound like the Internet. Hence we cannot use them to guide our moral thinking unless we have some compelling empirical information – and for that we need to actually try life extension [10:39]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [10:39]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [10:39]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [10:40]  Anders Nadir: My view is that having life extension for a while is the best way to actually figure out what it is good and bad for, just like we only now see both the good and bad sides of antibiotics or cars. But while informed decisions can then be made the scope of action is limited by the now existing structures. We might indeed have gone down a one-way road towards a destination we do not like (or rather, that our future selves might not like – do we have the right to dictate their actions?). [10:40]  Manoj Undercity is Offline [10:40]  Anders Nadir: But at the same time we will also have new options. Today we can respond to problems of cars in a variety of ways that we could not do in the past (anti-congestion fee systems, hybrid cars, airbags, villages designed with car-free cores etc). It seems unlikely given our historical evidence that we will get fewer options in the future, both individually and as societies. Instead of arguing about whether to get life extension we might need to discuss what kinds of life extension are good – and in what settings. [10:41]  Anders Nadir: Should we want to want to live for a long time? Maybe we would be happier if we were content with whatever lifespan we had. [10:41]  Anders Nadir: On the other hand, we could imagine becoming content with any bad state of affairs. Would the subjects of a tyrant be better off if they didn’t resent his misrule? They would not suffer from experiencing the injustice, but would still suffer from the bad state of affairs. Being content with a limited lifespan doesn’t make the state good. At the very least the negative effects of ageing are worth overcoming just like any bad medical condition, and becoming content with the status quo would actually prevent it. Rather, it would be rational to be discontent if the discontent could be channelled to doing something about the situation. [10:42]  Khannea Suntzu growls antagonistic and belligerent [10:42]  Manoj Undercity is Online [10:42]  Anders Nadir: In the past there was little chance of actually doing much about ageing, so it would actually have been rational to accept limited lifespan as any other inevitability. But given the current technological state it seems that the opposite is true: it would be irrational to not want to at least fix the negative aspects of ageing. [10:43]  Anders Nadir: With me so far? [10:43]  Chaos Venera nods [10:43]  Evalyn Dagmar: yes [10:43]  Anders Nadir: Great! [10:43]  Pavel Qi: fine [10:43]  Dresden Nakatani: preach on preacha [10:43]  Anders Nadir: Still, there could be existential reasons for not wanting long lives. [10:43]  Brunswick Warburton: yes! [10:43]  Anders Nadir: A popular argument, expressed for example by Leon Kass and countless other poets, is that the shortness of life makes it valuable. The beauty of flowers come from their transience. Very poetic, but why do we then value diamonds? [10:43]  Evalyn Dagmar: I am not a flower. [10:44]  Anders Nadir: More seriously the evidence seems to suggest that lifespan and general happiness are correlated. Happy people live longer and countries where people live long are usually also the happiest. Up to a degree increasing wealth increases happiness and lifespan, but beyond a certain cut-off point in living standard (roughly on Ireland’s level of GDP per capita) the link to wealth weakens. If long lives caused people to suffer ennui, lose ambition or many of the other bad things suggested, we ought to see much unhappiness in the most long-lived countries – but this is not the case. [10:44]  Eirinn Overdrive: The human mind is powered by information, as long as there are changes curiosity alone should be drive enough [10:44]  Anders Nadir: A possible counterargument would be that merely 80 years is not enough, but 200 years might be enough. But this relegates us to the world of ‘mights’ again. If life extension and changes in ageing structure are bad we ought to have seen significant effects of a doubling of lifespan over the past century. But the world today appears to be about as happy as the past. [10:44]  Cryonica Artizar: with you [10:44]  Khannea Suntzu: Our current society needs low-ego low-payment and *low-age* economic slaves [10:45]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [10:45]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [10:45]  Anders Nadir: Would we want to be a long-lived kind of persons? It doesn’t seem that longevity itself is any virtue or character trait, although we often value things that are said to go well together with it, like wisdom or being resilient. On the other hand, certain conceptions of what kind of life we want to live may contain elements relevant to ageing. If I’m trying to be the young tortured artist life extension might not be very relevant, while seeing myself as endlessly exploring and growing as a person might have life extension as an essential part. A character based perspective is highly individualistic. [10:45]  #uvvy: Sat: We have them Khannea they're called white trash. [10:45]  Anders Nadir: Professor Julian Savulescu defined human enhancement as enhancements that improve the human condition. If something improves (say) your hearing but does not make you happy it is not really an enhancement of your life. Life extension is likely to be a human enhancement for most, but not necessarily for everyone. [10:46]  Eirinn Overdrive: i like that point [10:46]  Anders Nadir: Having life enough is usually a requisite for most life projects, regarding what they are about. Hence it seems that from a purely instrumental perspective it will be a good tool for the good life. [10:46]  Anders Nadir: Will we develop very long life projects in the long run (“I’d like to learn how to compose, write poetry, do brain surgery and then compose operas about the experience”), or will we invent new ones when old ones are finished or abandoned? (“After we finally got peace in the middle east I decided to become an architect”). It could be that people who cannot find new life projects will choose to die. [10:47]  Anders Nadir: Is interest a survival trait? It could be that in the long run only those interested in life will survive. [10:47]  Meleah Lilienthal: what role does expectation play as well? [10:47]  Evalyn Dagmar: people can certainly choose to die, but it is certainly horrible to impose death on anyone who doesn't want it "for their own good". [10:47]  Anders Nadir: In the end we must all ask ourselves: are we running away from death or running to life? I do not think one can make a good ethical or psychological case for life extension based on a fear of death, or even the undesirability of dying. Life extension only makes sense in seeing the individual, unique human life as something positive. [10:48]  Anders Nadir: Expectations... I'll get to those later. [10:48]  Anders Nadir: While the case for life extension is usually based on the desire to live longer and healthier there might be an even stronger reason to do it: the economic bottom line. Ageing costs society enormous sums and living people are themselves economically valuable. [10:48]  Khannea Suntzu: Or versions of you that dont find a rationale shut down, those that do continue. [10:48]  Eirinn Overdrive: mhmh... i do not see life extention as a limitation, but as the removal of a barrier where the effect can be ended [10:48]  Eirinn Overdrive: it is not like you CANT die [10:48]  Eirinn Overdrive: you will have a choice [10:48]  Evalyn Dagmar: indeed. [10:48]  Anders Nadir: Yes, that is an important point. Everything is mortal. Life extension is about increasing the likeliehood of survival when you want to. [10:49]  #uvvy: levitation[A] has joined #uvvy [10:49]  #uvvy: Sat: I'm into life extension for purely selfish reasons. [10:49]  Anders Nadir: In a recent paper several prominent biogerontologists argue that just slowing ageing enough to gain seven years of extra healthy life would pay back society an enormous “longevity dividend”. Seven years is just what the authors consider a plausible near term goal. [10:49]  #uvvy: Sat shrugs [10:49]  Eirinn Overdrive: so you're not imposing a certain problem you're removing one, at least when speaking personal reasons [10:49]  Anders Nadir: S. Jay Olshansky, Daniel Perry, Richard A. Miller, Robert N. Butler, The Longevity Dividend, The Scientist, vol. 20:3 2006 http://www.the-scientist.com/2006/3/1/28/1/ [10:49]  Eirinn Overdrive: but we will ahev serious problems with mass population (we will anyway) if immortality in some degree is attained [10:50]  Anders Nadir: Ageing is a root cause for many expensive chronic diseases like cancer, stroke, dementias, arthritis, heart disease, osteoporosis and diabetes. Reducing ageing even slightly would reduce them significantly. In general it is better to go for underlying causes of illness than symptoms, as demonstrated by how the discovery of a stomach bacterium turned ulcers from something chronic and expensive into something treatable and rare. In fact, increasing lifespan by seven years would be a far greater gain than even totally eliminating cancer, heart disease and diabetes! [10:50]  Meleah Lilienthal: feeding those lives for an additional seven years would pose a burdon [10:50]  Dale Glass: won't be much of a problem, we geeks don't reproduce very often anyway ;-) [10:50]  Eirinn Overdrive: xD [10:50]  Pavel Qi: why would you discount other advances? [10:50]  Eirinn Overdrive: wee another reason to make cyborgs ;P [10:50]  You: Folks, please try to limit the comments to the topical. This is not a chat session. [10:50]  Eirinn Overdrive: ahrem :x [10:50]  Manoj Undercity is Offline [10:50]  Evalyn Dagmar: thinking of people as burdens is the wrong way to go. Acknowledge the economic contribution of people, but also acknowledge that if someone wants to be alive it shouldn't matter what kind of job they're doing, etc. [10:51]  Manoj Undercity is Online [10:51]  Spider Mycron is Online [10:51]  Anders Nadir: I hope somebody takes note of them so we can get into them at the end . My working memory is a bit loaded right now. [10:51]  Anders Nadir: Ageing and death deprives society of tremendous values and knowledge, while healthier lives provide society with more experience, labour, consumers and producers. Longer lives would be a tremendous boon to economic growth. As shown in a series of economic studies, the value of improvements in life expectancy has been about as large as the value of all other consumption goods and services put together. The total value of the increased longevity that took place from 1970 to 1990 has been enormous, in the order of $2,800bn a year in the US. [10:52]  Anders Nadir: To calculate this the researchers estimated the value of one year of healthy life by looking at the investments people do to achieve it, and multiplied it with the real gains achieved. In such studies the value of an older life tends to be lower than a middle aged life. Are the old undervaluing their lives? Perhaps not at present: life quality does go down when one starts to become frail. But if frailty can be postponed older people are likely to value their lives even more. That would likely make the gains greater. [10:52]  Anders Nadir: This is the language politicians understand. [10:52]  Anders Nadir: The longevity dividend is particularly tempting for the rapidly ageing EU, Japan and China: the relatively young US can wait, but we cannot. Maybe an international age race will define the 21st century as the space and nuclear races did the 20th. The sheer economic power of a more long-lived society might be a strong stimulus for adventure and growth, especially among the young who seek new niches rather than compete with their elders. [10:53]  Anders Nadir: In general people tend to accumulate capital over their lives. This means that in a longevity society people will on average have a chance to grow richer. [10:53]  Anders Nadir: Would an ageing culture stagnate, as many fear? If that was true then we should see that the countries where people live the longest would be the most stagnant, while younger countries would be more vibrant. But looking at the world today we see the opposite – the intellectual powerhouses are just the countries where people live the longest. One explanation might be that they attract the best and brightest from everywhere else, which is at least partially true. But the majority of researchers and media innovators in the US or UK are not young people from third world nations. Instead the reason for the productivity of ideas may be the vibrant economy, pluralistic society eager to adopt ideas and the means of distributing them. Even if we are slowed down by conservative professors and set in their track executives the other factors are clearly strong enough to counteract them [10:53]  Dresden Nakatani: ok, now you also have to add human overcrowding into the equation, soon our countries will be overflowing with a lot more people because feweer will be dying [10:53]  Eirinn Overdrive: space expansion is a possibility [10:54]  Eirinn Overdrive: there is strong evidence of life on Mars they are contemplating habitats now [10:54]  Eirinn Overdrive: (it's not a joke) [10:54]  Herbert Hoggard: Earth alone is big enough! [10:55]  Anders Nadir: Overpopulation: yes it is an issue, but not for the greying populations of the EU, who are soon suffering from underpopulation/ [10:55]  #uvvy: Mo has joined #uvvy [10:55]  #uvvy: Sat: There's plenty of space here. I see it as more of an issue of carrying capacity. [10:55]  Evalyn Dagmar: better to encourage people to have fewer children than encourage them to die! [10:55]  Anders Nadir: But lets get to the overpopulation later. [10:55]  Anders Nadir: All human cultures have a very structured idea of the process of human ageing, a life path. As we live longer we will reinvent it. Old people are increasingly active and refuse to fit into the mould of asexual, passive repositories of wisdom. A long life opens up for new phases in life, where study, retirement and work could be alternated. As retirement becomes less of a necessity and more a long holiday the less permanent it will be. Lower fertility and longer lives are producing “beanpole families” where many generations are alive but have few members, making non-relatives more part of the family. Instead of 'till death do us part' we are becoming serial monogamists. The combination of a sharp mind and youthful body with savings, maturity and experience might open for more radical reinvention of society, careers and identity. [10:56]  IntLibber Brautigan: there is no overpopulation issue [10:56]  Manoj Undercity: heyas Charles [10:56]  Anders Nadir: Even if successful anti-ageing would cause social problems it would likely be worth it. We would also adapt to it just as we have already adapted to our current enormous lifespan. [10:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Plus can we make any statements about how a *healthy* human age 120 would act as opposed to the wrinky, frail stereotypes we know now, of over 60 ? [10:56]  Anders Nadir: The two greatest threats to achieving life extension is having society think that it is impossible or easy. [10:56]  #uvvy: Mo waves "hello" to Manoj Undercity [10:57]  Meleah Lilienthal: and with drugs like viagra, elderly people are enjoying passionate youthful loving relationships, marrying older and living happier [10:57]  Anders Nadir: The impossible part may appear obvious. As long as nobody or very few thinks it is feasible little resources will be aimed at solving the problem. Regulations and social institutions will not support the research and might actually counteract it. When methods arrive they will not be regarded as real medicine and again may suffer problems in adaptation. [10:57]  Anders Nadir: But there is also a danger in thinking technologies to control ageing will be easy and happen soon. I’m always slightly irritated when I meet transhumanists who smoke. The irritation is due not to the smoke per se (and I think people should be allowed to smoke), but that they often rationalize that soon technology will be able to fix the damage. It is a gamble that nano-Santa will arrive before lung cancer. The problem here is the complacency fed by optimism. A more rational approach would be to get the nicotine through safer methods, like Swedish snus or (even better) nicotine chewing gum. But the idea that something will save them is strong enough to rationalize what is essentially an expensive kind of suicide. [10:57]  Dresden Nakatani: not always, the largest cases of AIDS epidemics are now amongst the elderly, because they think just that...I'm old and gonna die anyway so why use protection.......and instead of dying they are cursing themselves to yaers of frail suffering [10:58]  Anders Nadir: The same goes with believing that life extension will be easy to achieve and implement real soon. While it might encourage us to invest and behave in ways that ensure we have a long future it also encourages laziness. [10:58]  Anders Nadir: Society is already suffering from the “science fact” problem: people have a hard time distinguishing what is real from what is in the near future, being prognosticated or just suggested. Stem cells are seen as cures for disease today, when we have hardly started doing the basic research on them. The same could go for life extension. Many people expect it right here and now if it is medically possible. [10:59]  Anders Nadir: Setting expectations too high risks hype and later disillusionment. Setting them too low risks losing motivation. We need to figure out feedback that enables us to adjust them, not just for ageing but for practically all science. That is an important task we need to think about how to do. [10:59]  Anders Nadir: The ubiquitous Clifford Pickover’s most recent book is called “A Beginner's Guide to Immortality” (full disclosure: he mentions my website in it). While the main theme is about becoming immortal through one’s radical work, I think the title points out something we need. We need that kind of Beginner’s Guide to understand and deal with a radically long life. Report to moderator   Logged David Lucifer Archon Posts: 2642 Reputation: 8.94 Rate David Lucifer Enlighten me. Re:Keep on Raging Against Ageing « Reply #2 on: 2006-12-18 16:36:18 » [11:00]  Anders Nadir: Currently we have “A Beginner's Guide to Mortality”, although not in a convenient book form. This Beginner’s Guide is more like a self-study course we are subjected to by picking up culture and ideas from people around us. Perhaps it is a compendium, filled with everything from fairy tales, bible pages, TV sound bites and annotated, heartfelt discussions with our family. We are confronted with the threat to our existence at an early age and people gladly deliver various memes that may or may not help us deal with that. Aubrey has written and said a great deal of the pro-ageing trance much of mankind seems to be in: in order to handle death we construct various explanations about its necessity and possible goodness. Psychologists studing people’s views of ageing and death have even more to say about what is in this “A Beginner's Guide to Mortality”, including how people actually seem to apply it quite successfully in many cases to die with at least some resignation. [11:00]  Manoj Undercity: yaay Mo is here [11:00]  Dresden Nakatani: how can the human psyche handle over 120 years and still halthyand not fracture basically [11:00]  Eirinn Overdrive: hmm good point [11:00]  Evalyn Dagmar: why not run the experiment? [11:00]  Eirinn Overdrive: maybe that's the physical reason why sleep is needed [11:01]  Manoj Undercity: Mo. please take hover chair [11:01]  Manoj Undercity: hehe [11:01]  Anders Nadir: Now, if we are proposing to change the nature of ageing, we are threatening the validity of this compendium. But the psychological need to deal with the existential issues of growing old, being mortal and changing as a person still remains! If we cannot offer “A Beginner's Guide to Immortality” instead of the already existing guide to mortality we are making a profound threat to people’s well-being. We all need a sense of meaning and order in our lives. To lack a sense that life has a structure we can predict is inherently stressful. Stress is after all the experience that one isn’t in control, and not being in control of one’s life is the ultimate stress. It is no wonder that the only times I get serious criticism for my debate articles is when I write about life extension, not things like cloning, nanotechnology or posthumans. The latter things are no threats to our sense of existence, but the mere possibility of throwing the structure of life out of the window is enormously unsettling. [11:01]  #uvvy: Sat is away: (Connection reset by beer) [11:02]  Dresden Nakatani: not to mention dangerous [11:02]  Anders Nadir: This suggests that beside the biomedical research of actual anti-ageing we need sociological, philosophical and psychological research on building a mode of being suited for longer lifespans. It cannot be just academic research, although I think that will be important. It will need to be about creating social norms, human stories and ideals, practical advice and do’s-and-don’s to ageing, a big reinvention of what it means to age. This is a big cultural project that requires people to drive it, to constantly point out its necessity. It requires the support of the mainstream in terms of interest and participation. [11:02]  Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [11:02]  #uvvy: Sat: not to introduce too big a tangent... but, reducing religious thinking would go further, I think, than increasing life extension thinking in orienting people towards acting in ways which are beneficial for life extension. [11:03]  Anders Nadir: It can also be started today, because we are already living in a society where the traditional Guide to Mortality clearly isn’t working. Those baby boomers are questioning it, since many of them do not fit into the traditional view of what it is like to be old. [11:03]  Anders Nadir: We need to explore better ways of living long. [11:03]  Anders Nadir: Currently health is a kind of religion. Striving for health is a signal of virtue. Many people become upset if despite their virtuous actions they are not rewarded with health and long life. [11:03]  Anders Nadir: But health is a tool. It is something we want because it enables us to live, and because ill health and death limits our life projects. [11:03]  Anders Nadir: Perhaps the healthiest way of approaching extended lifespans is to view life and health as a project, and ongoing artwork (to borrow from Natasha Vita More). If we give up the notion of one kind of health and instead see that there are as many kinds of health as life projects, we can try to find ways to our kind of health. It would mean an individualisation of healthcare, something that is slowly happening but will likely accelerate over time and also help acceptance of life extension. [11:04]  Dresden Nakatani: what about those bodily entrapments we as humans have absolutely no control over [11:04]  Dresden Nakatani: i.e. cancer [11:04]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [11:04]  Anders Nadir: Our lives are ongoing artworks we are trying to shape into something beautiful, creative, amazing. Some might want to keep to the short sonnet form, others will go for the wild epic. [11:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Plus we would do well to make not only our bodies health, but the world around us as well; most cities today are pathological. [11:04]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 4/7 - anders1 [11:04]  Anders Nadir: Thank you! [11:05]  Eirinn Overdrive: interesting [11:05]  Dresden Nakatani: pathological as well as self-helpless [11:05]  Anders Nadir: Now, time to try to answer all your questions :-) [11:05]  Eirinn Overdrive: don't spam him folks [11:05]  Lucifer Darrow applauds [11:06]  Terence McKenna applauds [11:06]  Anders Nadir: To look at the most recent one: yes, life extension will not mean control. It will be about influence over an important facto, but not total control. We have to include the random in our projects [11:06]  Meleah Lilienthal smiles and claps [11:06]  Eirinn Overdrive applauds [11:06]  Dresden Nakatani: what of those serious terminal health problems that people face every day like cancer or aids or other bodily terminal conditions [11:06]  Herbert Hoggard: How to deal with religious people. They give me the most flak [11:06]  Dresden Nakatani: with no cure even in sight [11:06]  Eirinn Overdrive: cancer is getting cured in about the next 100 years [11:06]  Eirinn Overdrive: huh? you're slow [11:06]  Dresden Nakatani: i doubt it [11:06]  Anders Nadir: The NIH is claiming it will make cancer merely a chronic disease by 2015. [11:06]  Ian Sterling: a gift to me Anders thank you [11:06]  Eirinn Overdrive: all recent studies show that cancer has a good chance of being cured withing a normal timeflow [11:07]  Manoj Undercity: okie dokie.. question and answer time [11:07]  Giulio Perhaps: anders can I smoke? [11:07]  Eirinn Overdrive: the new dna type has loads of that [11:07]  Eirinn Overdrive: the RNA [11:07]  Anders Nadir: Sure, smoking in SL doesn't irritae me :-) [11:07]  Dresden Nakatani: now...all be it for me to strt preaching because I am not religious...but what about the "meant " factor [11:07]  Eirinn Overdrive: what's it called again >.< [11:07]  Dresden Nakatani: that maybe we just werent "meant" to be immortal [11:07]  Jef Ambassador: Anders: Do you think that longer life spans will enhance moral thinking due to people having a direct incentive to consider the longer consequences of their actions? [11:07]  Anders Nadir: Religion is tricky. Note that most religions actually claim to be fore life, both a long healthy life here and another one inthe hereafter. [11:08]  Dresden Nakatani: or to live that long [11:08]  Meleah Lilienthal: how do we, as a society, change the beliefs of those around us....the mere term "life expectancy" implies that the mindset would be essential to the actuality of longevity [11:08]  Eirinn Overdrive: i think limitations are imposed by humans alone [11:08]  Toeter Alva: what about the brain that does not renew itself how will we stop it from not being able to remain flexible what is what marks the young [11:08]  Eirinn Overdrive: now gotta go eat something unhealthy [11:08]  Ian Sterling: I want to live long enough to die of global warming.. [11:08]  Dresden Nakatani: imposed maybe, but what of the absolute conditions [11:08]  Eirinn Overdrive: there are no absolute conditions ;O [11:08]  Manoj Undercity: lol Mo is smoking again [11:08]  Anders Nadir: Some research show that over life people become more conscientous (in the big 5 personality sense), so yes, I think there might be a bit of moral growth. [11:08]  Manoj Undercity: see u soon Bunny [11:08]  Dresden Nakatani: certainly there are [11:08]  Eirinn Overdrive: see you [11:08]  Dresden Nakatani: spend too long in the sun..t WILL burn [11:08]  Eirinn Overdrive: name me one besides the self imposed constant? [11:09]  Dresden Nakatani: that is an absolute [11:09]  Eirinn Overdrive: not if you apply sun block [11:09]  Dresden Nakatani: it only lasts so long [11:09]  Eirinn Overdrive: depends on factors [11:09]  Eirinn Overdrive: therefor it's not absolute ;o [11:09]  Anders Nadir: I think there is good reason to think that more long-lived people will be interested in ensuring their long-term environment. [11:09]  Dresden Nakatani: fire will blister and cold will frostbite [11:09]  You: Folks, keep private chitchat to IM, don't contaminate the channel. [11:09]  Khannea Suntzu: Look at melanotan 2, interesting side effects [11:09]  Manoj Undercity: long lived people would also find alternate environments or modify their own bodies to adapt in any environment [11:10]  Pavel Qi: how has aging mapped against population growth? [11:10]  Anders Nadir: Overpopulation> to some extent the only solution is to reduce the birth rate. But that seems to be surprisingly changeable anyway - the demograpic transition in many countries is surpringly fast. [11:10]  Eirinn Overdrive: the chitchat you call it is probably the whole base for this disucssion [11:10]  Manoj Undercity: so conservation of environment would become obsolete if we can survive in any environment [11:10]  Dresden Nakatani: thank you Eirinn [11:10]  Chaos Venera: the thing is, arent we right now involved in a purely theoretical constuct of assumptions? [11:10]  Dresden Nakatani: weather proof houses and biio suits for all [11:10]  Anders Nadir: If we could survive anywhere we wouldn't need to cae about the environment except as resources - and aesthetics, and a sense of self. [11:10]  Eirinn Overdrive: np, gotta eat, bye [11:10]  Anders Nadir: Bye! [11:10]  Manoj Undercity: bye Bunny [11:11]  Khannea Suntzu: I think it will come down to a compromize; an "unnatural aging" and "cybernetics" and "mods" tax. [11:11]  Dresden Nakatani: another question sir [11:11]  Dresden Nakatani: what of natural resources [11:11]  Dresden Nakatani: and the taxation there of [11:11]  Anders Nadir: I think we need to recognize that life extension is becoming *politics* in the next years. [11:11]  Dresden Nakatani: longer lives means more food [11:11]  Manoj Undercity: life extension would just be abother form of medical treatment [11:11]  Jef Ambassador: In a very real sense, other people are a part of one's environment, so such pragmatic improvements imply moral improvements. [11:11]  Dresden Nakatani: because its cause and effect [11:11]  Anders Nadir: I predict that in about 5 years the longevity dividend will be a mantra in Brussels. [11:11]  Meleah Lilienthal: if we could eradicate the mindset of death at 78, perhaps the natural result would be more consientous living, a desire to improve the world, less wasteful spending habits and a greater focus on enrichment rather than riches, but again i ask, what step do i, as an individual take to change the predominant culteral mindset? [11:12]  Dresden Nakatani: mindset ok, but like I said cause and effect [11:12]  Meleah Lilienthal: shhh [11:12]  Meleah Lilienthal: let him answer me this time please [11:12]  Mo Enzyme: Meleah, certainly would be a longer timeframe. [11:12]  Arrogant Bastard Ale: You Are Not Worthy! [11:12]  Dresden Nakatani: mlonger lives means more people, more people means more room needed, means less room for agriculture [11:12]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [11:12]  Dresden Nakatani: means less food for all! [11:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Do bear in mind that nations such as Japan resisted immigration and now are investing *heavily* in robotics. It may be that nations such as the US, by opting for cheap imported [SLAVE] labour missed a vital demographic trend and cut their own fingers. [11:13]  Anders Nadir: The first step towards changing the mindset is to seriously consider possibilities of this kind of longer, kinder, gentler life and suggest how they might be possible. That may sound more like dreaming, but it actually the start of culture creation. Then inject it into the mainstream meme soup and let it evolve. [11:13]  Meleah Lilienthal: we live in 4000 sq ft homes, throw away more food than a small country can consume in ayear and you tell me there is lack??? [11:13]  Meleah Lilienthal: Thank you Anders [11:13]  Dresden Nakatani: there will be if more people start living longer and there are more people in the world [11:13]  Dresden Nakatani: look at Seattle [11:13]  Anders Nadir: The food issue is a non-issue. We can fairly easily provide more than enough food for a large population on Earth today, but the problem is the distribution systems. Note that famines occur only in nondemocratic countries. Coincidence? [11:13]  Meleah Lilienthal: if i understand what you are saying, it is simply that by the process of accepting the thought, we are already changing the reality? [11:14]  IntLibber Brautigan: Dresden, you are making hyperbolic statements here unsupported by the facts [11:14]  Dresden Nakatani: theories [11:14]  Manoj Undercity: "Then inject it into the mainstream meme soup and let it evolve." <-- are u implying that we transfer these traits as genetic eventualities conditionally. that is borderline eugenics is it not ? or r u referring to the cultivation of culture ? [11:14]  Pavel Qi: I think its fair to assume that any advancement inthe treatment of aging wont be in isolation [11:14]  Anders Nadir: Yes, spreading the doubt in the "prodeath trance" is a great start. [11:14]  Meleah Lilienthal nods [11:14]  Chaos Venera agrees with IntLibber [11:14]  Lucifer Darrow: Manoj, memes refer to culture [11:14]  You: People, is this open discussion already, or do you want to let Anders answer the load of questions you put forward to him so far? [11:14]  Manoj Undercity: yes teacher [11:15]  Pavel Qi: there would also be advancements in farming and other production techniques [11:15]  Meleah Lilienthal: like speading religion essentially, or essentially any new belief, simply by believing you will influence some [11:15]  Anders Nadir: I'm talking about the spread of culture. That is always theoretical, but as von Hayek showed in _The Intellectuals and Socialism_, this is how you take over social reality. [11:15]  Khannea Suntzu: The amount of intolerance, confusion or simple stupidity in mundanes towards life extension is staggering. Most peeople dont have a clue what may be possible. [11:15]  #uvvy: Sat lights up a doobie and listens [11:15]  Manoj Undercity lights up Sat;s tail on fire and calculates life extension [11:15]  Dresden Nakatani: propaganda [11:15]  Ian Sterling ponders what advice Anders has given not to be critical but to be practical... ?? get another fridge? [11:15]  Meleah Lilienthal: Dres, please? [11:16]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg/a/An.html#Anders [11:16]  Dresden Nakatani: im jsut saying thats what it would take to start changing minds of people in this world today [11:16]  #uvvy: Mo: Sat, if only we could get the SL contingent to keep there chat within the IRC cutoff, we could catch more of this. [11:16]  Anders Nadir: I think there is no prolem with cluelessness or disagreement. We need good opposition (that is why I love Fukuyama, he has pull and some good points - although I think him wrong), but we need to have serious debate. [11:16]  #uvvy: Sat nods [11:16]  Dresden Nakatani: people today are probably more passionate about what they believe than they have ever been [11:16]  #uvvy: Sat: I think the solution to the cut off is technocratic [11:16]  Dresden Nakatani: so changing minds is going to be a feat to say the least [11:16]  #uvvy: Sat: we must change that variable on the irc server. [11:16]  Arrogant Bastard Ale: You Are Not Worthy! [11:17]  #uvvy: Sat peers at Lucifer [11:17]  #uvvy: Lucifer nods [11:17]  Anders Nadir: Yes, as societies worldwide get richer people will go up Maslows hierarchy of needs. And that means a lot of people can today spend enormous amounts of energy on their ideologies and self-actualization. [11:17]  #uvvy: Mo: most people can't read more than a couple of lines at once . . . perhaps its just as well. [11:17]  Chaos Venera: omg, RL calls and it might seriously shorten my life exectancy =) Anders, thank you so much for the lecture, was very interesting [11:17]  Anders Nadir: Thank you! [11:17]  Dresden Nakatani: i mean seriously, a church group got banned from tribal lands in north dakota becasue they protest at military funerals because they say military deaths are our punishment for homosexuality [11:17]  #uvvy: Sat: ... either that or install smart shock collars on everyone in this chat. [11:17]  #uvvy: Sat: I vote for the second option [11:18]  Dresden Nakatani: thats passionate beliefe....wrong all be it..but passionate how are you going to change their minds? [11:18]  Pavel Qi: why do we need to? [11:18]  Manoj Undercity: i agree with Pavel [11:18]  IntLibber Brautigan: quite, we outlive the fools [11:18]  Dresden Nakatani: because they are a fundamental portion of todays society [11:18]  Pavel Qi: all we need to do is convince them to allow us to go our own way [11:18]  Anders Nadir: In general, I think there plenty of practical things to do. One is to promote longevity thinking. Another is to seriously suggest better ays of discussing science and future directions for society. A third is of course to try to get involved in the research. [11:18]  Manoj Undercity: the "why" question s very important [11:18]  Khannea Suntzu: I tried explaining the idea of life extension on an islamic forum. Even without me being arrogant, the abuse I got was staggering. [11:18]  Manoj Undercity: the "how" can always be theorized [11:19]  Pavel Qi: people who worship death arnt really our target audience [11:19]  Dresden Nakatani: but htese ar ethe people that are passing laws and legislation as we speak on anti-abortion and gun control and partitioning genetic research in federally funded labs [11:19]  Ian Sterling smiles to anders and agrees [11:19]  Anders Nadir: This is also why tolerance is so necessary. We cannot evelop good life extension in an intolerant world, and even if we could it would not be particularly nice to live long in! [11:19]  Pavel Qi: no their not [11:19]  IntLibber Brautigan: people who worship death will die, and the debate ends [11:19]  Pavel Qi: their using those people to get elected [11:19]  Hakan Triangle: Look at locke. There was one fundamentalist ready to accept that others could go about their merry way as long as you could go about your own... [11:19]  Meleah Lilienthal: well, we do have a very useful tool in such discussions, at least with the fundamentalists [11:19]  Anders Nadir: How do you fight proposed laws? By proposing your own. Start by getting involved with the public debate and public policy. [11:20]  IntLibber Brautigan: exactly [11:20]  Meleah Lilienthal: they believe that before the flood in the bible, that men lived up to 1000 years [11:20]  Pavel Qi: once you show the politicians/wall st/ the city etc [11:20]  Dresden Nakatani: i agree with you Anders, all the way....im jsut saying that there are tose (who have a lot of power) that will try to stop this kind of thing from happening because of the "meant " factor [11:20]  Anders Nadir: Fundies are probably the smaller problem. I fear the technocrats. To them we are all economic gains and losses, and they would love to control the longevity dividend rather than allow people self-defined health. [11:20]  Manoj Undercity: THE LUDDITES [11:20]  Pavel Qi: the econmomic benefits most other things fall by the wayside [11:20]  Khannea Suntzu: I concur with a very grim, determined expression on my face [11:21]  Evalyn Dagmar: anders: I agree [11:21]  Pavel Qi: definitely [11:21]  Dresden Nakatani: technocrats and the greedy/powerful [11:21]  Anders Nadir: I think "those with power" are a great deal more adaptable than we give them the credit for. Remember that the power elites did not change despite the Cold War, which was a pretty intense geopolitical upheaval. [11:21]  Meleah Lilienthal: but Dres, its like..........well.......any new thought..........one person tells two......two people tell four and so on [11:22]  Dresden Nakatani: true [11:22]  Meleah Lilienthal: goverments and other authorities cant stop that kind of thing [11:22]  Dresden Nakatani: and some gets skewed and a little lost in translation [11:22]  Meleah Lilienthal: and why would they want to? [11:22]  IntLibber Brautigan: particularly as more economies migrate to non-taxable plenums [11:22]  Dresden Nakatani: thats easy [11:22]  Pavel Qi: oh if only:) [11:22]  IntLibber Brautigan: you wind up in a snow crash scenario [11:22]  Anders Nadir: Governments love to give people what they want, at least in democratic nations. Markets give people what they want. So if people demand better health(s) and longer lives, what will happen? [11:22]  Hakan Triangle: But what about missing markets? [11:22]  Dresden Nakatani: social security and health care costs [11:23]  Pavel Qi: > health would indicate a reduction in health costs [11:23]  Meleah Lilienthal: the people will vote in the candidate who pays lip service and dollars to that ideal [11:23]  Anders Nadir: I doubt life extension will be a missing market, given that 8.4% of the US GDP is medicine today. [11:23]  IntLibber Brautigan: if there is a demand for it, the products will reach the market [11:24]  IntLibber Brautigan: with globalization, people will travel to India or any other country willing to offer treatments [11:24]  Dresden Nakatani: that is all dependant on whether or not these long lives are healthy ones [11:24]  Meleah Lilienthal: i live in Florida, let me tell you.........there is a Herbal market on every corner....why?.....because people know that better nutritian leads to a greater chance of longevity [11:24]  increase Hermes: Hello, avatar! [11:24]  increase Hermes: applauds [11:24]  Pavel Qi: definitely, one only has to look at the stellar sucess of prohibition in the 30's [11:24]  Ian Sterling: I know my market, it is climate change and am glad to have another ten years to rage against it [11:24]  Khannea Suntzu: Now all we can do is hope that life extension technologies proves to be easy to realise and that it doesnt cost 25K per year gained. [11:24]  Pavel Qi: or the 'war on drugs' [11:24]  Anders Nadir: One problm today is that while we are cynical about the political system it doesn't turn into any useful action. If we really thought it was as corrupt as we say we would rebel or become tax evasion survivalists in the hill. The problem is that cynicism is a bit like the comfortable blanket of not having to do much about the situation because it is corrupt. [11:24]  Spider Mycron is Online [11:25]  IntLibber Brautigan: actually anders, I have another reason [11:25]  Khannea Suntzu nods knowingly [11:25]  Dresden Nakatani: Well Anders i must say, not very many things impress me anymore, but your speach and debates have impressed me [11:25]  Meleah Lilienthal claps and nods eyeing Anders with approval [11:25]  Dresden Nakatani: kudos [11:25]  Meleah Lilienthal: wel said [11:25]  IntLibber Brautigan: people value their lives more now [11:25]  Waldemar Commerce: I think one of the main problems today is not life extension technologies per se but the entire complex of the idea of longevity. Anders, do you see the problem of controls diverting certain areas of longevity, leaving us with inferior technologies? [11:25]  IntLibber Brautigan: and are less willing to risk them on revolutions [11:25]  Evalyn Dagmar: exactly. Cynicism can serve as a safety blanket for lazy people. You can do nothing and still be "right". [11:25]  Meleah Lilienthal: or fearful ones [11:25]  Anders Nadir: I think it is very likely that life extension will provide healthier lives since life extension will aim at ageing, the base cause of most of the illnesses. Even if we dont get a massively long lifespan even a rectangularization of the survival curve will make us live betterlives. [11:25]  Khannea Suntzu nods knowingly and a bit sadly. [11:25]  Anders Nadir: Thanks! [11:26]  Dresden Nakatani: this kind of research and gains are possible....with a LOT of BIG stub=mbling blocks int he road, but possible none the less [11:26]  Waldemar Commerce: Certain life extensions yes, but not longevity and morphological freedom? [11:26]  Dresden Nakatani: so what if it fails [11:26]  Dresden Nakatani: purely hypothetical [11:26]  Anders Nadir: Well, right now people are hyping stem cells and antioxidants, which probably are good tools. But I think people may be a bit impatient with learning how to control metabolic networks. [11:27]  Evalyn Dagmar: then it fails. Nobody now can think in terms of wanting certainty, all we can do is remain motivated and experiment [11:27]  Dresden Nakatani: always have to have the what if's [11:27]  Hakan Triangle: If you value your life so much that there is nothing you would do to risk it, I would contend that it is a rather drab life [11:27]  Manoj Undercity: i have to disagree on several counts. there is no apprehension against living longer. both ancient and modern systems of medicine aim at prolonged life. the immortalists only fantasize more. other than that, removal of suffering of the body would naturally result in prolonged lifespans. no religion bans it directly. imho [11:27]  Evalyn Dagmar: if everyone were terrified of failure, nobody would ever invent anything [11:27]  Meleah Lilienthal: the possibility of longer life, is an attractive notion, the drive and desire to pursue a healthy viable one would be a natural course of action...........the hard part.........is turning the notion into believe.........taht done, the rest would follow [11:27]  Anders Nadir: If it turns out that we cannot extend lives, well, "ce la vie". We can find other fun things to do. Or upload ourselves, maybe - my favorite project. [11:27]  Pavel Qi: we at least need to try [11:27]  Dresden Nakatani: LOL [11:27]  Meleah Lilienthal: believing that a light bulb could exist was the hard part, making one was merely a case of drive over experimentation [11:27]  Herbert Hoggard: [11:28]  Dresden Nakatani: it was also a case of need and supply [11:28]  Evalyn Dagmar: you don't need to believe something will DEFINITELY happen in order to remain motivated to try. Drive is extremely important. [11:28]  Dresden Nakatani: candles are short lived....we NEED a longer lived light sourse [11:28]  Ian Sterling nods to Meleah [11:28]  Meleah Lilienthal smiles at Ian [11:28]  Dresden Nakatani: tadah light bulb [11:28]  IntLibber Brautigan: right Evalyn [11:28]  Dresden Nakatani: however...lightbulds dont last forever..just longer [11:28]  Anders Nadir: I'm pretty certain that in 300 years we will look back at our current ideas and laugh. But hopefully in the same sense as we laugh at some of the early attempts in railroads rather than heavier than air flight. [11:29]  IntLibber Brautigan: the vision and drive to make it real makes reality happen [11:29]  Meleah Lilienthal: ah but were talking about the technology [11:29]  Evalyn Dagmar: Exactly. [11:29]  Pavel Qi: but we only need it to work until something better comes along [11:29]  Dresden Nakatani: I jsut plan on having my own body cloned for spair parts [11:29]  Meleah Lilienthal: and a lightbulb today lasts many hours more than the original [11:29]  Dresden Nakatani: as they fail, just give me a new one [11:29]  Anders Nadir: Technologies need visions to drive them. Just look at the Internet. [11:29]  Khannea Suntzu: With some luck I'll be there doing the laughing. [11:29]  Ian Sterling: beleiving there is a solution for Kyoto is the big barrier [11:29]  Evalyn Dagmar: true [11:29]  Mo Enzyme: I'm personally planning on reproductively cloning myself. [11:29]  Manoj Undercity: what does life extension technology mean to the poor ? [11:30]  Anders Nadir: A solution to Kyoto - to get rid of the accord or implement it? :-) [11:30]  Meleah Lilienthal: which falls under the header of accepting the possibility of technological advanments that allow longer life dres [11:30]  Evalyn Dagmar: to the poor it means the same thing as any medical advance means: [11:30]  Waldemar Commerce: Anders that's the spirit of my question, a longevity "internet" or longevity "television"? [11:30]  IntLibber Brautigan: grind up all the old cars and dump their metal in the oceans [11:30]  Dresden Nakatani: hey...my peepee jsut fell off....well guess its time to get the back up LOL [11:30]  Anders Nadir: But living through ones clones, that is not really you, is it? [11:30]  IntLibber Brautigan: the plankton blooms will suck up all the CO2 [11:30]  Pavel Qi: do we really want carbon emissions reduced if the general assembler is just around the corner [11:30]  Dale Glass: I'm not sure if cloning will arrive soon enough, but I guess meanwhile there's cryonics [11:30]  Dresden Nakatani: as long as the mind stays intact it is, jsut refreshing the body, replacement...jsut like a car [11:31]  Mo Enzyme: Having a clone gives your offspring a medical history. [11:31]  Dresden Nakatani: may have to put on a new alternator...does that mean its not the same car? [11:31]  Dresden Nakatani: no [11:31]  Manoj Undercity: thinking or dreaming that Maitreya is gonna come walk on water ans solve all problems cuz he is just around the corner would only make us lazy [11:31]  Dresden Nakatani: just a new functional part [11:31]  Mo Enzyme: good for medical desicions. [11:31]  Ian Sterling: the implementation of the Kyotot protocol was considered intractible by many beaurocrats iIMHO, so it takes courage to even say out load it is solved in part [11:31]  Anders Nadir: Ah, good one Waldemar. Of course, what I have been talking about is a longevity Internet rather than longevity television. But that requires pressure on doctors, health care rules and pharma to provide for individualized health care. And making sure longevity dividend money does not just end up in big flagvawing projects. [11:31]  Khannea Suntzu: name & shame [11:32]  Mo Enzyme: its not just about living through your clone, its about providing them with more medical history than they would have if they weren't a clone. [11:32]  Waldemar Commerce: Anders I see that as a major political project [11:32]  #uvvy: Sat: Car + new part. the whole is changed although the pattern is pretty much the same.  Thing is Sat now is not Sat minus 7 years aho. Sat simply think he's the same. [11:32]  Anders Nadir: Yes, longevity might be one of the defining projects of this century. [11:32]  Dresden Nakatani: that and space travel [11:32]  Dresden Nakatani: slash exploratiuon [11:33]  Anders Nadir: Spare parts are not enough to guarantee longevity. You cannot replace your immune system well, not to mention the brain. [11:33]  Dresden Nakatani: why not [11:33]  Waldemar Commerce: Anders given the low tolerance of morphological freedom, what could open up the disourse in society? [11:33]  Dresden Nakatani: breed new T cells and white blod cells and flood your body with its own DNA covered cells [11:33]  Anders Nadir: Space travel could have been th big project, but got bogged down in nationalist posturing and big science projcts - it is a "television" project rather than an open-ended Internet one. [11:33]  Pavel Qi: replace it with an artificial one? [11:33]  Manoj Undercity: DNA covered cells ? lol [11:33]  #uvvy: Sat: I thought my brain has been replaced several times already in my life.  Do I have the same atoms in my brain that I was born with? [11:34]  Herbert Hoggard: Have to go. Thanks Anders! [11:34]  Dresden Nakatani: you get the point [11:34]  #uvvy: Sat: relacement may be a matter of which scale parts are replaced at [11:34]  Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [11:34]  Manoj Undercity: yeah [11:34]  Anders Nadir: We might need more things like the magnetic sense finger, and a few high profile political or legal cases to bring the spotlight on the issue [11:34]  Dresden Nakatani: k [11:34]  Meleah Lilienthal: you might as well just plop your brain into another body Dres......the idea while interesting is remote and unrelated to the concept of increasing the longevity of the body we are conceived in [11:34]  Pavel Qi: another christopher reeve? [11:35]  Manoj Undercity: christopher reeve was an absolute real world hero [11:35]  Waldemar Commerce: Anders and of course the constant presence of public policy groups in the debates? [11:35]  #uvvy: Sat: any voluteers? [11:35]  #uvvy: Sat grins [11:35]  Cryonica Artizar: u live an unhealthy life! [11:35]  Dresden Nakatani: I guess it all boils down to we are going to die sooner or later...and who wants to live forever [11:35]  Cryonica Artizar: he he [11:35]  Manoj Undercity: for killing u Sat ? [11:35]  Dresden Nakatani: so why prolong the inevitable [11:35]  Evalyn Dagmar: dres: because we feel like it [11:35]  Anders Nadir: The brain has many cells throughout life, but of course most of the molecules get replaced. But even with good neural repair to reattach it to a cloned body it is likely that an old brain will suffer trouble. The regeneration through stem cells inst that great now. [11:35]  Manoj Undercity: lol [11:35]  Evalyn Dagmar: nihilists are welcome to make themselves extinct, the rest of us don't need to follow [11:36]  IntLibber Brautigan is Online [11:36]  #uvvy: Sat: I for one am opposed to ceasing to exist. So, I'm putting it off as long as I can. [11:36]  Ian Sterling picks up his stuff as he must go with the Tide, which waits for no man..... Thanks you Anders.. FareWell All... [11:36]  Pavel Qi: well siad [11:36]  Dresden Nakatani: well, while yall are under microscopes getting your stuff tuned up...I'll be jumping out of a perfectly good airplane myself [11:36]  Meleah Lilienthal claps for Sat [11:36]  Meleah Lilienthal: here here [11:36]  Waldemar Commerce: I think the idea that it will come done to "who wants to live" is a bit dangerous. memes do live longer than genes in this case [11:36]  Anders Nadir: In the long run everything decayse, unless it has a lot of backups. But in the meantime I think I want to enjoy life to its fullest. And that requires more than a measly century. [11:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Anders, as a semi related side question, at roughly what year do you antiipate a kurzweilian singularity? [11:36]  #uvvy: Sat: longevity through procrastination! [11:36]  Pavel Qi: [11:36]  #uvvy: Sat chuckles [11:37]  #uvvy: Sat: maybe I'll get around to dying later. [11:37]  Evalyn Dagmar: things decay but complexity also increases [11:37]  Dresden Nakatani: of, I have to throw this one out there Anders....what abou tthe theory of heaven and Hell [11:37]  Evalyn Dagmar: and complexity can lead to emergent properties [11:37]  Anders Nadir: I think we will get a very soft Singularity sometime near th mid or end of the century. Soft because it will be distributed over society, likely involve a lot of people and collective intelligence augments a la Google and Wikipedia, and lots of "parasites" like spam. [11:37]  Meleah Lilienthal: and by merely considering the possibility, we are in effect changing the reality.........i now consider that i could live to 120, healthy and happy, yesterday i was sure i would die at 75 or so..............what change will that have on my life?........who can say [11:37]  Dresden Nakatani: sorry to drag the whole religious side into it, but Iwant to hear this [11:37]  Anders Nadir: I think we already are there - we are already in heaven *and* hell. [11:38]  Dresden Nakatani: I try to be conigant of theology [11:38]  Pavel Qi: why is it relevant? [11:38]  Dresden Nakatani: why is it not [11:38]  Pavel Qi: we make our own heavens and hells [11:38]  #uvvy: Cuillins has quit [11:38]  Dresden Nakatani: I guess I have a lot of religious people in my family......baptists, chistians, Jews all of em [11:38]  Dresden Nakatani: very mixed [11:38]  Meleah Lilienthal: why would the issue change Dres, those are concepts that you carry through life, regardless of wether you die at 25 or 120 [11:38]  Anders Nadir: Just considering a long life will actually be slightly life extending thanks to optimism. But the real exetension will be through supporting and enabling the technologies, of course. And not all of them will be medicine. [11:38]  Dresden Nakatani: but one thing is agreed upon all of them [11:39]  #uvvy: Sat: It's relevant because religion informs all levels of society.  one crazy religious nut in the white house, ahem, could end it all... or waste billions on war instead of useful projects. [11:39]  Dresden Nakatani: they can't wait to die to go to Heaven] [11:39]  Pavel Qi: the afterlife is only of true relevance to those who believe in it [11:39]  Anders Nadir: I'm so glad I come from a postreligious country. [11:39]  Dresden Nakatani: now....pour this one into your thinkpot [11:39]  Mo Enzyme: we can't really ignore religious dialogue . . . as irrational as it may seem its a constant background to humanity. [11:39]  Pavel Qi: look at the restrictions on suicide in most organised religions [11:39]  Dresden Nakatani: what if that whole theory about it is what you make it....isb ullshit [11:39]  #uvvy: Sat: those who believe in it act accordinly and that effects us all [11:39]  Evalyn Dagmar: yes but you can't reason someone out of their religious convictions, because those convictions aren't based on reason [11:39]  Dresden Nakatani: what if it is all really there [11:40]  Dresden Nakatani: what then [11:40]  Manoj Undercity: but the major point here is that no religion bans longetivity [11:40]  Anders Nadir: Religions are also quite adaptable. The amish are farming genetically modified nicotine-free tobacco! [11:40]  Mo Enzyme: as a side efect of our ability to think abstractly, I'm guessing religious thinking is here to stay for a while. [11:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh yes they do [11:40]  Manoj Undercity: lol Nadir [11:40]  increase Hermes: Thanks for the talk, Anders. Got to go; see you on extro-chat... [11:40]  Anders Nadir: WHich religions ban it? [11:40]  Anders Nadir: Have fun! [11:40]  increase Hermes: /wave [11:40]  Dresden Nakatani: thats not the point [11:40]  Evalyn Dagmar: khannea is right, they think it's playing god [11:40]  Evalyn Dagmar: except if you're talking about fetuses [11:40]  Meleah Lilienthal: Protestantism, Catholosicm........i know those do [11:40]  Dresden Nakatani: my point is....WHAT IF heaven and hell really do exist out of this plae of existence [11:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Try talking to wahabi, I talked to some who already assert that life extension is a violation of the plan of allah. [11:41]  Pavel Qi: islam if it isnt in a worthy purpose [11:41]  #uvvy: Sat: historically religion has been opposed to almost every technological advance. [11:41]  Meleah Lilienthal: thats a whole different debate Dresden [11:41]  Mo Enzyme: Dresden, what if . . . and why worry? [11:41]  #uvvy: Sat: think stem cells today for example [11:41]  IntLibber Brautigan: wahabbists thought telephones carry the foice of satan [11:41]  Dresden Nakatani: and it all gets screwed by playing with genetics or for lack of a better term "playing God" [11:41]  Pavel Qi: then how are we worse off than now [11:41]  Meleah Lilienthal: if he were truly god, would we be able to "screw it up"? [11:41]  Waldemar Commerce: Playing God is not a relevant argument as much in Europe, as it would rather be criticized for going agianst the natural order or increasing enquality in society [11:41]  #uvvy: Sat: copernicus got shit for his models from religious authorities.... [11:41]  Anders Nadir: No, during the middle ages the monks of the Catholic church spread the first industrial revolution (windmills etc) across europe. They did it because the tech gave them more time to pray! [11:41]  Pavel Qi: if genetic modifications remove my 'soul' [11:41]  Meleah Lilienthal stands with a smile for all [11:41]  IntLibber Brautigan: took King Saud speaking the quran over it to prove them wrong [11:41]  Manoj Undercity: the wahabi is but a sect. the Quoran as such does not ban life extension. it in fact promotes love and harmony and good health to increase ones life [11:42]  Meleah Lilienthal: this was truly enlightening and thought provoking [11:42]  #uvvy: Sat: hell even birth control is still frowned on by most religion [11:42]  Evalyn Dagmar: isn't there a mormon transhumanist chapter though? [11:42]  Manoj Undercity: its just cuz u hate religion that u see it that way [11:42]  Pavel Qi: what do i KNOW ive lost? [11:42]  Meleah Lilienthal: Anders your discussion was well spoken and easy to follow and i thank you very much [11:42]  Dresden Nakatani: I hate religion? [11:42]  Anders Nadir: Most religions are for a long healthy life. It is just that they do not accept certain means to do it. But if it is just (say) a bunch of chemicals it is unlikely that any religion would actually be against it. [11:42]  Dresden Nakatani: ......... [11:42]  Meleah Lilienthal: i must go now [11:43]  Anders Nadir: Thanks Meleah [11:43]  #uvvy: Sat: while religion might not be opposed to life extension as a whole... it will probably stand in the way of many of the technoligies involved in it. [11:43]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [11:43]  #uvvy: Sat: my take on the issue. [11:43]  Manoj Undercity: i agree with u on that point Sat [11:43]  Waldemar Commerce: Anders what is your opinion of the view of the non-abrahamitic religions like zoroastrism, buddhimsm etc on longevity? [11:43]  Anders Nadir: I think religion will be against mainly stem cells and inheritable genetic modifications. [11:43]  Evalyn Dagmar: yes, as part of the general fetus obsession... [11:43]  Mo Enzyme: well, fear of death is a prominent selling point of much religion. [11:44]  Evalyn Dagmar: not sure what it is about religion and fetuses [11:44]  Xantha Oe: perhaps control of women [11:44]  Mo Enzyme: so if you take that away, its a memetic threat to its existence. [11:44]  Dresden Nakatani: I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers, I jsut love a good debate and try to go at it from all point s of view [11:44]  Anders Nadir: Zoroastrism seems to be very much for LE, at least the western form of it. Buddhism is general for better lives, it is just that we shouldn't become too obsessed with it. Shintoism doesn't care as long as it is pure. Taoism might be somewhat luddite, despite its history of life extension experiments. [11:44]  Waldemar Commerce: Case in point Japan had zero problem with abortion but with the concept of brain death [11:44]  Manoj Undercity: if a loving husband and wife want a child at any cost, then religion ceases to come in the way. the child will be brought in by any and all scientific means [11:45]  You have offered friendship to Lucifer Darrow [11:45]  Lucifer Darrow is Online [11:45]  Pavel Qi: does taoism have the structure to be a luddite force? [11:45]  Anders Nadir: Jews are also notably pro-life extension. There is a rabbi that has a very good chapter in the book "Eternal Life" where he argues against Kass. [11:45]  #uvvy: Sat: well taoism has a historical slant towards seeking longeveity and immortality [11:46]  #uvvy: Sat: it's also non theistic [11:46]  Anders Nadir: I don't think taoism is going to be important. [11:46]  Waldemar Commerce: It is my impression that taoism has not been politically involved, and left that to confusianism [11:46]  #uvvy: Sat nods [11:46]  #uvvy: Sat: buddhism is non theistic as well. [11:46]  #uvvy: Mo: especially Zen [11:46]  Anders Nadir: Confucianism is also rather pro longevity. But perhaps too pragmaticly in bd with the Party to do anything on tis own. [11:46]  Dresden Nakatani: freakin lag [11:46]  #uvvy: Sat: and mainly oriented to ceasing suffering [11:46]  Dresden Nakatani: sorry [11:47]  Anders Nadir: I guess the Zen take on longevity would be "Look at the moon tonight" [11:47]  #uvvy: Sat: so I'd say it's more aligned with >h than not. [11:47]  Waldemar Commerce: Anders, more relevant for us Europeans, the issue of increased inequalities in society? [11:47]  Pavel Qi: lol [11:47]  Dresden Nakatani extends a hand for a firm handshake [11:47]  #uvvy: Sat: The dahli llama, in fact, has said he has no problem with the idea of personally reincarnating into a computer. [11:47]  #uvvy: Sat chuckles [11:47]  Dresden Nakatani: it has been a pleasure, truely intellectually stimualting [11:48]  Dresden Nakatani: I must be off [11:48]  #uvvy: Sat: And has also stated that buddhism when shown errors by science must adjust it's doctrine [11:48]  IntLibber Brautigan: thx [11:48]  Anders Nadir: Yes. That is the quintessential euro question. I don't think it is likely to be much worse than now. People in higher classes live longer, but this may be more due to stress reduction than better health care. If life extension becomes available it is likely that resources will be aimed at giving it to a large groups, just like education. [11:48]  Mo Enzyme: I think I would have a problem with reincarnating into a non-computer for that matter. [11:48]  Evalyn Dagmar: I have to go now, it has been a very intriguing presentation. Thank you very much Anders. [11:48]  Arrogant Bastard Ale: You Are Not Worthy! [11:48]  Anders Nadir: Have fun! [11:49]  Mo Enzyme: I'd hate to not be able to process data in my next life . . . [11:49]  Manoj Undercity: LOL [11:49]  #uvvy: Sat: If I were to engineering a mutation of an existing religion for compatibility with transhumanism, I'd use buddhism, myself. [11:49]  Waldemar Commerce: Another euro question, Anders. going against the natural order [11:49]  #uvvy: Sat: seriously [11:49]  Anders Nadir: I once dreamt about my future self as a planetary computer grid. I always mention that when new agers start talking about remembering their past lives. It outweirds them :-) [11:50]  #uvvy: Sat: heh [11:50]  Lucifer Darrow: google: Anders Sandberg [11:50]  #uvvy: googlebot: googling for  Anders Sandberg [11:50]  #uvvy: googlebot: shit, google service unavailable [11:50]  Lucifer Darrow: arrr [11:50]  Manoj Undercity: lol [11:50]  Lucifer Darrow chuckles [11:50]  Lucifer Darrow: googlebot, language! [11:50]  #uvvy: googlebot: frack [11:50]  #uvvy: Sat: way to go googlebot [11:50]  Anders Nadir: The natural order issue may be the big religious issue once you squeeze out god from religion. Most churches are going green, and it is possible to set up The Natural Order as a replacement god. Essentially the greenchurch would be the main opponent. [11:50]  #uvvy: googlebot: Maybe not [11:50]  Arrogant Bastard Ale: You Are Not Worthy! [11:51]  Anders Nadir: The problem with the natural order argument is that it is essentialist, it assumes we are static objects rather than processes. [11:52]  #uvvy: Sat nods [11:52]  IntLibber Brautigan: Wb honey [11:52]  #uvvy: Sat: it's superstitious [11:52]  Anders Nadir: I prefer Mirandola's dynamic approach to human nature - and the natural order - its essence is change, growth and complexity (or at least the chance to become more complex). That is also the counterargument against the greenchurch. [11:52]  tavi Tuck: thank you Sweetheart...had pc problems [11:52]  Cryonica Artizar: Jag hör er! [11:53]  Waldemar Commerce: I usually counter it Anders by claiming Aristotle that we should perfect our natural form, and we don't know what the end of this form is [11:53]  WhiteBoard (e): Now showing Image 5/7 - anders2 [11:53]  Anders Nadir: When arguing with religions and ideologies it is good to look at their core assumptions and value, and argue towards them rather than whatever practical argument they are directly proposing. [11:53]  #uvvy: Sat: the theory of Forms is also essential. (superstitious) [11:53]  Anders Nadir: Yes, the Aristotle argument works. [11:53]  #uvvy: Sat: It claims Forms as xisting outside of nature. [11:54]  #uvvy: Sat: that'd make Forms supernatural. [11:54]  Anders Nadir: I disagree that it is superstitious, forms can be just what we normally call information. [11:54]  IntLibber Brautigan: forms are mathematical [11:54]  IntLibber Brautigan: math exists outside nature [11:54]  IntLibber Brautigan: even tho nature is defined by it as well [11:54]  Mo Enzyme: forms are simply abstractions. [11:54]  #uvvy: Sat: show me something that is outside the system of the universe. [11:54]  Anders Nadir: I don't think math is inside nature, in particular a special kind of nature called minds. [11:55]  #uvvy: Sat agrees [11:55]  #uvvy: Sat: sorta [11:55]  Anders Nadir: But we may need to invent a new aristotelianism for the information age, of course. [11:55]  tavi Tuck: thank you Anders and all..i need to leave for work [11:55]  #uvvy: Sat: if nature is a set which includes minds and minds a set which include math... then it follows that math is not supernatural. [11:55]  Anders Nadir: Have fun! [11:56]  Manoj Undercity: haha Nano Santa ! [11:56]  IntLibber Brautigan: thx [11:56]  Anders Nadir: Yes, that is my approach. I have never felt Platonism made any kind of sense. [11:56]  Mo Enzyme: Math simply represents the natural convergent abstractions from reality. [11:56]  Arrogant Bastard Ale: Ahhh that was some tasty brew! [11:56]  Anders Nadir: On Singularity day nano santa comes and gives all good transhumanists lumps of coal to nanofacture into anything they want. [11:57]  Manoj Undercity is Offline [11:57]  #uvvy: Sat: weeee! [11:57]  Arrogant Bastard Ale: You Are Not Worthy! [11:57]  Pavel Qi: does that day convieniently fall upon newtonmas? [11:57]  Anders Nadir: Convergent abstractions, that was a nice description. Maybe numbers are the results of convergent evolution. [11:57]  #uvvy: Sat turns his lump of coal into a gril friend and a six pack of beer [11:58]  Mo Enzyme: Anders . . . that was the metaphor I think. [11:58]  IntLibber Brautigan: If I might make an announcement relevant to our audience [11:58]  Anders Nadir: I think it would be rather apporpiate to have SIngularity day on Newtonmass (and Christmass and all the others). [11:58]  IntLibber Brautigan: and re nanosantas [11:58]  IntLibber Brautigan: One of our future sims will be themed upon The Diamond Age [11:58]  IntLibber Brautigan: I am looking for interested persons to help build that sim [11:59]  IntLibber Brautigan: to promote transhumanist ideas [11:59]  Pavel Qi: gosh, were not hijacking another organisations festivities are we? [11:59]  IntLibber Brautigan: always [11:59]  #uvvy: Sat: it worked for the Christer Holes. [12:00]  Anders Nadir: Well, I think I have to call it an evening. It was great fun, and now I'd like to do it again. [12:00]  Pavel Qi: I wonder if we can turn leon kass into a cloven footed adversary? [12:00]  #uvvy: Sat: Be well Anders. [12:00]  Mo Enzyme: Thanks, Anders. I had fun. [12:00]  Pavel Qi: thanks anders [12:00]  Anders Nadir: So see you in a while, and in the meantime, live long and prosper! [12:01]  Pavel Qi: merry newtonmas t you all! [12:01]  #uvvy: Sat hums the star trek theme song [12:01]  IntLibber Brautigan: Do we have a WTA donation jar I can donate beer proceed to? [12:01]  Waldemar Commerce: We will certainly do so again. The Eudoxa think tank plans more seminars here in Second Life [12:01]  Pavel Qi: likewise [12:01]  Waldemar Commerce: Check out our site at www.eudoxa.se [12:01]  Cryonica Artizar: Lovely to have u here Anders and Waldemar [12:01]  Waldemar Commerce: and the Uvvy Island site of course [12:01]  Cryonica Artizar: See u on my island sometimes [12:01]  Xantha Oe: thanks anders [12:02]  Cryonica Artizar: And God Jul [12:02]  #uvvy: Sat: and be sure to visit the SL Church of Virus. [12:02]  Waldemar Commerce: A tentative time will be January [12:02]  #uvvy: Sat winks [12:02]  Waldemar Commerce: God jul Cryonica [12:02]  Lucifer Darrow is Offline [12:02]  #uvvy: Lucifer: IRC gateway still working in my absence? [12:03]  Mo Enzyme: Yes, after ten plus years of existence, the Church of Virus has arrived in SL [12:03]  #uvvy: Sat: aye aye cap'n [12:03]  Giulio Perhaps is Offline [12:03]  IntLibber Brautigan: all of our transhumanist memes are coming true here [12:03]  #uvvy: Lucifer: sweet [12:03]  #uvvy: Sat is away: (Connection reset by beer) [12:03]  Waldemar Commerce: Ladies and gentlemen thank you for coming, as I am leaving now [12:04]  Pavel Qi: thanks waldemar [12:04]  IntLibber Brautigan: thx, good to see some activity around here [12:04]  You: Thanks Waldemar. Good show. [12:04]  Arrogant Bastard Ale: You Are Not Worthy! [12:05]  #uvvy: eugen: Will you shut down the channel now? [12:05]  IntLibber Brautigan: who is eugen here? Is he in Sl yet? [12:06]  Mo Enzyme: he's in IRC via lucifer.com [12:06]  You: Sure, I'm Terence McKenna. [12:06]  IntLibber Brautigan: yeah saw that [12:06]  IntLibber Brautigan: was wondering if he had an av here yet [12:06]  You: Um, I'm Eugen. [12:06]  Terence McKenna waves [12:06]  IntLibber Brautigan: ah [12:06]  Mo Enzyme: I think you are just Terence McKenna's avatar [12:06]  Pavel Qi: great choice of name [12:06]  You: Yeah, I died and reincarnated here [12:07]  You: O [12:07]  Mo Enzyme: there are worse places to be born into, I suppose. [12:07]  Mo Enzyme: or reborn for that matter. [12:07]  You: I'll post the transcript to the wta-talk and exi-chat lists, so that the other guys see what they've missed. [12:07]  IntLibber Brautigan: cool [12:07]  Pavel Qi: thanks! [12:08]  IntLibber Brautigan: I'd like to donate some kegs here for WTA fundraising, is there a place where they can be installed? [12:08]  Pavel Qi: I cant find a tip jar [12:08]  Pavel Qi: is Guillio still online? [12:08]  IntLibber Brautigan: he seems to have timed out [12:08]  You: No, he's left. [12:09]  You: Has been great to meet you all. I'm going offline to nurse my cold. [12:09]  Pavel Qi: pleasure to meet you too [12:09]  You: Likewise. [12:10]  You: Oops, cut and paste will take a while... [12:11]  Pavel Qi: pleasure to have met you all [12:11]  Pavel Qi: see you arouund and merry newtonmas [12:11]  IntLibber Brautigan: you too pafel ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820            http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE Report to moderator   Logged Pages: [1]   Jump to:Please select a destination: ----------------------------- General ----------------------------- =>Announcements =>Evolution and Memetics =>FAQ =>Church Doctrine =>Science & Technology =>Society & Culture =>Arts & Entertainment =>Philosophy & Religion =>Humor & Satire =>Creative Endeavors =>Serious Business =>Virian Book Club =>Second Life =>Free For All =>Infections =>Suggestion Box =>Test Area ----------------------------- Mailing List ----------------------------- =>Virus 2006 =>Virus 2005 =>Virus 2004 =>Virus 2003

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