 Poll
|
| Question: | Should one remain Chaste until marriage?
| Definately not. Its pointless. | |    11 (73%) |
| Its not important at all, but not a bad idea in order to stay away from trouble. | | 2 (13%) |
| Really not sure. Not really leaning either way either. | | 1 (6%) |
| Its something eveyone should do, but its ok if you choose not to. | | 1 (6%) |
| Yes. No one should ever under any circumstances have sex unless they are married. | | 0 (0%) |
| | | | Total Votes: 15 | |
|
|
|
Author
|
Topic: Chastity (Read 4069 times) |
|
MoEnzyme
Acolyte
Gender: 
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 4.60
Rate MoEnzyme
infidel lab animal
 
|
 |
Re:Chastity
« Reply #15 on: 2005-05-18 22:17:05 » |
 |
Right NOW Tom Leykis is talking about this EXACT topic . . . as I am typing this. The thing about not using a condom and trusting women "on the pill" (btw which they should be on anyway).
So if its not too late by the time you read this . . . TUNE IN NOW!!!!!!!!
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
|
|
|
Blunderov
Archon
Gender:
Posts: 3160
Reputation: 8.91
Rate Blunderov
"We think in generalities, we live in details"
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #16 on: 2005-05-19 07:35:54 » |
|
Mermaid posted
"Use it or lose it? Irresponsible, Blunderov.. "
and later clarified with:
"It is my opinion that human beings have not evolved enough to escape the emotional traps that seem to accompany orgasms. It can only occur when one is hardened(pun not intended) by life and age. After a time when one's personality is wholly formed and they can recognise responsibilities, impact of their hormones on their decision making capabilities and the way to navigate commitment issues.
Young people are sexual beings and should explore the carnal landscape. Intercourse is a completely different issue. The perpetual existence of our species hinges on our ability to see and act on the connections between love, lust and commitment. These are hardwired to a certain extent.
Given all that, I dont think young people should be banging whomever turns them on given that this is a time for them to develop their personalities, skills and talents. There is always time for that later. There is no 'age bracket for this as it differs from person to person. Imo, when one reaches certain mental and emotional maturity, they are good to go. Of course, for some this happens in their teens and some never mature even after they pass middle age. I suppose one will know for themselves when it occurs."
[Blunderov] It's possible that I was glib when I wrote 'Use it or lose it'. I apologise for being facile. here is, I hope, a more considered response.
I am suspicious of the cult of childhood. In biological terms our sexual lives begin a puberty. Societal pressures have caused us to extend the period of childhood way beyond the point of its actual biological phase transition.
There are some compelling reasons for this I concede. It takes longer than the span of childhood to impart the skills and education necessary to function independently in such a complex society. But given that no pregnancy (or STD) occurs, it seems to me that any requirement for independent economic viability as a qualifying condition for indulging in intercourse is redundant.
I can agree with you that there may emotional traps lying in wait for the unwary
fornicator. Contrariwise however, I don't see how it is possible to gain experience is these matters without some hands-on (intended) experience. Everybody has to start somwhere. Of course if or when is entirely up to the individuals own discretion.
Pragmatically, it seems to me that young people are going to have sex sooner rather than later. One might as well try to impart the information necessary for survival without sermonising. Hormones are very sermon resistant. My own daughters became sexually active way younger than even I anticipated. It didn't bother me in the least once I had established that they were 'being resposible'. They are (AFAIK) now perfectly well adjusted, educated, happy, funtioning young adults. Where's the bad? Quite possibly openess prevented a disaster that repression might have otherwise engendered.
Getting back to brass tacks; I'm puzzled that you perceive intercourse as the line in the sand beyond which young people ought not to venture. I don't see it as a different issue at all. I see it as the natural consequence of mutual exploration. Given that the necessary precautions are taken, why not ? Could it be possible that the difference in our positions is due to the fact that I don't see 'love' as a necessary condition for intercourse and that you do? (Did I mention that I'm a bit suspicious of the cult of romantic love too?)
Whatever the case, it's delightful to hear from you again.
Best Regards.
|
|
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.46
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #17 on: 2005-05-19 14:00:38 » |
|
Hey Blunderov,
Thanks for the detailed response.
Pragmatically, it seems to me that young people are going to have sex sooner rather than later. One might as well try to impart the information necessary for survival without sermonising. Hormones are very sermon resistant.
Indeed. I believe that I think young people ought to explore their sexuality.
My own daughters became sexually active way younger than even I anticipated. It didn't bother me in the least once I had established that they were 'being resposible.
Must we get personal? As I mentioned earlier, it is difficult to illustrate a general point with specific examples. Discussion becomes tedious and taboo in such instances. It forces me to accept your version as I have no way of countering such a claim.
I can agree with you that there may emotional traps lying in wait for the unwary fornicator. Contrariwise however, I don't see how it is possible to gain experience is these matters without some hands-on (intended) experience. Everybody has to start somwhere. Of course if or when is entirely up to the individuals own discretion.
It is my opinion that one cannot start fornicating before they are emotionally mature. I believe that there are hardwired vulnerabilities specific to our species when physical intimacy 'crosses a point of no return'. That 'point of no return' is intercourse. I see it as a purely biological safeguard placed by nature so that our species can perpetuate. However, this vulnerability is non existant or diluted when one is merely sexual as opposed to actual penetrative intercourse.
I'm puzzled that you perceive intercourse as the line in the sand beyond which young people ought not to venture. I don't see it as a different issue at all. I see it as the natural consequence of mutual exploration. Given that the necessary precautions are taken, why not ?
see above reply.
This is a recent position that I have adopted after reading slews of EP theories(and discarding most of them, i might add).
Could it be possible that the difference in our positions is due to the fact that I don't see 'love' as a necessary condition for intercourse and that you do?
Au contraire, we dont differ at all in our beliefs. The difference lies in that I believe that young people(Read as emtionally immature...this is not age sensitive) are not capable of seperating love from lust. The ability to enjoy latter and endure the former develops with age, experience, exposure etc.
Whatever the case, it's delightful to hear from you again.
Ditto... I couldnt have disagreed with anyone else on such an iffy topic without being misunderstood.
I hope you are doing well.
affectionately,
Mermaid.
|
|
|
|
|
MoEnzyme
Acolyte
Gender:
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 4.60
Rate MoEnzyme
infidel lab animal
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #18 on: 2005-05-19 17:59:45 » |
|
Apparently Mermaid takes the Bill Clinton definition of sexual relationship. Of course as an "American" USA Democrat I really appreciate her for this kind of position (despite any rational shortcummings it may have). I have always held the position that Monica Lewinsky is a poorly appreciated patriot, and so I thank Mermaid for standing up for my small yet significant ongoing political crusade. I really don't know that I grok much else you say my dear, but I love you for standing up for Slick Willy regardless 
-Jake
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.46
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #19 on: 2005-05-20 05:22:31 » |
|
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2005-05-19 17:59:45
Apparently Mermaid takes the Bill Clinton definition of sexual relationship. Of course as an "American" USA Democrat I really appreciate her for this kind of position (despite any rational shortcummings it may have). I have always held the position that Monica Lewinsky is a poorly appreciated patriot, and so I thank Mermaid for standing up for my small yet significant ongoing political crusade. I really don't know that I grok much else you say my dear, but I love you for standing up for Slick Willy regardless
-Jake
|
I think Bill Clinton should receive a Purple Heart for the whole sorry episode.
|
|
|
|
|
MoEnzyme
Acolyte
Gender:
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 4.60
Rate MoEnzyme
infidel lab animal
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #20 on: 2005-05-20 11:31:50 » |
|
Quote from: Pabreetzio on 2005-05-20 04:39:15
And update on the situation between the 17 year old girl and her 37 year old married pastor: word got out. The whole town went into uproar. They made the pastor leave town, threatened him with all sorts of things, saying that he cant talk to the girl in any way, and that he might go to jail for 20 years for this. This incident has changed the pastors life for sure, and i dont think its positively.
The girl, 18 tomorrow, has been sobbing more than she ever has before in her life combined: and shes already had a bit of depression at times in the past. She is very very emotionally attached to this man, he has been an intimate influence on her spiritually and physically, and now she: has to take her finals. Sobbing all day and not being able to focus means that shes really screwed as far as finals go. Her parents are making her go to counsling and everyone is saying all this shit about the pastor, saying hes a demon incarnate, and stuff like 'he doesnt ever want to see you again'. since this girl has been my best friend, I helped her get in touch with the pastor. Despite the evil townsfolk saying he doesnt want to see her again, he does. Hes been terrorized into not contacting her, and now even its in secret code to alternate e-mail adress checked on public computers.
Is it fair for me to say that in this case getting screwed has really screwed her over?
Her sister as well has let sex ruin her life. Her sister graduated top of her class, valedictorian. Went to a fine University, and then got pregnate her first year there. She had to leave the state to go live with her family again in california. since she was a resident of texas the fees on college were very high, so even getting her mom to help her with her baby she couldnt take many classes because of money issues. Its so sad that both of these girls have let sex before marriage significantly impact their lives for the worse. |
I hope you learn to think more clearly about the issues than this. These examples had nothing to do with sex before marriage; they had to do with breaking rules about consenting adults and birth control. If people can't follow these two simple rules, then I agree its best they just said "no". Marriage has nothing to do with it.
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
|
|
|
David Lucifer
Archon
Posts: 2642
Reputation: 8.94
Rate David Lucifer
Enlighten me.
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #21 on: 2005-05-20 16:33:14 » |
|
If you are looking for advice Pabreetizio, I have a strategy that you can apply to any situation including this one: Take whatever course of action you believe will minimize the potential for future regret. Take into account not only the level of possible regret but the probability of each possible outcome. If you wait until you get married will you regret it? If so, how much? Now weigh that against the possibility of regret if you don't wait. What if she gets pregnant? What if it ruins your friendship? What if you get an STD? Of course your precautions will change the probability of all these outcomes, but you have to be honest in your assessment. Don't assume your precautions will work or that you will remember to take them even.
Your sad story of your friend and the pastor illustrates well what happens when actions are taken without proper consideration for future regret potential. This is what happens when reason is abandoned, and none of us are immune to the influence of strong emotions.
|
|
|
|
|
Rhysenn
Initiate
Gender: 
Posts: 41
Reputation: 5.44
Rate Rhysenn
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #22 on: 2005-05-21 09:39:49 » |
|
I agree with David Lucifer. If you want to wait until marriage, fine, i'm not going to stop you. That's your business and your choice to make. But personally i hold the opinion that waiting just isn't worth it, so i use birth control and maintain monogamous relationships to minimize the risk. And though there are negative examples of what can happen, i've never been pregnant or contracted any STDs and am quite happy with how my life is going. Your examples aren't so much about how sex before marriage can be dangerous, but rather how sex before you're emotionally mature or sex without proper contraception can be dangerous, and i quite agree with that.
I also think that large portions of society have out-of-date morals, such as the stigma against teenagers having sex. My parents didn't want me having sex in high school, but with my knowledge of myself at that age I'm quite sure it wouldn't have affected me negatively. If they found out, they'd learn to just deal with it.
And i still don't understand why marriage is the determining factor here.
|
|
|
|
|
MoEnzyme
Acolyte
Gender:
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 4.60
Rate MoEnzyme
infidel lab animal
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #23 on: 2005-05-23 05:55:29 » |
|
Quote from: Pabreetzio on 2005-05-22 21:59:19
I think you are missing what that example illustrates. The problem is not lack of contraception or anything like that, hell the guy IS sterile, hes been tested since he and his wife couldnt have trouble and they found that out. Hes also only been in one other relationship, and his wife im sure was tested for everything since her only other sexual experience was a rape. I don't think the guy had an STDs. The problem is that society sees it as wrong for a married man to have sex with someone else, even more wrong for it to be with someone of such big age difference, someone who was under 18 at the time, and to top it off it is even more unethical that he is her pastor. This was an area where society says sex is wrong wrong wrong.
|
You don't sound like you are ready to have sex. You sound too conflicted and like you aren't thinking clearly. The consenting adults rule has been mentioned on here several times, at least by me if not others. As for the pastoral relationship, that is definitely bad decision making on the pastor's fault assuming he would like to keep his position (see Lucifer on minimizing regret.)
Quote:| Its not just about minimizing risk, but keeping within societal norms. granted that not many remain chaste, but thats how society says it should be. And we have those rules in society for a reason. Afterall, no one needs to have sex. Why do it? |
I don't know which society you live in, but chastity hasn't been as societal norm where I live during my lifetime and I live in the Bible Belt. Sure you can find some fundy church leaders who will espouse it, but they hardly speak for themselves and often hypocritically at that. In addition the legacy of such thing as "abstinence only" (pro-chastity)education is much poorer than normal sex education if you are counting in terms of STDs and unwanted pregnancy.
The rule is there for a function that has nothing to do with reason. The function being to increase birthrate through encouraging irrational thinking about sex for the memetic gain of those religious institutions espousing chastity as a virtue. Do you really want to be part of such mindless replication that has no concern for your personal happiness? As I said earlier disagreeing somewhat with Blunderov's "use it or lose it" point (though he later clarified), I don't espouse your running out to get laid if you aren't ready for that. But I see no sense in cleaving to chastity as a rule, or worse holding it out as a virtue to others. Chastity works as a rule if you are marrying and breeding at 14 yrs old as is a frequent custom in third world countries with insanely high birthrates. Personally I prefer a different quality of life.
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.46
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #24 on: 2005-05-23 07:40:28 » |
|
Ok, Jake. Let us look at this another way.
What is wrong with chastity? What does one lose if one willingly chooses to be chaste?
|
|
|
|
|
Rhysenn
Initiate
Gender:
Posts: 41
Reputation: 5.44
Rate Rhysenn
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #25 on: 2005-05-23 16:57:14 » |
|
Quote:| granted that not many remain chaste, but thats how society says it should be. |
Whose society? I wouldn't say that that is the general rule of American society. There are some subcultures who believe that but I personally know many Americans who think it is archaic and silly. It is not something common throughout all cultures. It runs through many cultures to be sure, but there have always been exceptions. The Vikings, for instance, would have kids before marriage. It was convenient enough for them because fostering was common and the children were wanted to help work on the farms.
Quote:| What is wrong with chastity? What does one lose if one willingly chooses to be chaste? |
I don't really see anything wrong with the personal choice of chastity, even if i find it irrational. I think preaching chastity however can have negative results in some instances. For instance, telling young girls that they are not allowed or not supposed to have sex until marriage can send the message that their virginity belongs to their husbands. And this can negatively affect how they view themselves and their place in society.
|
|
|
|
|
MoEnzyme
Acolyte
Gender:
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 4.60
Rate MoEnzyme
infidel lab animal
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #26 on: 2005-05-23 23:43:45 » |
|
Quote from: Mermaid on 2005-05-23 07:40:28
Ok, Jake. Let us look at this another way.
What is wrong with chastity? What does one lose if one willingly chooses to be chaste?
|
As I said in response to Blunderov on the "use it or lose it" point, at least in re: to an 18 year old male, there is no hurry to get laid if he isn't ready. At that point in life a few years makes a lot of difference and I wouldn't favor anybody pressuring Pabreetzio to start fucking if he has some unresolved issues or reservations about the whole thing. Especially in regards to intimate/sexual behavior, people need to do things when they are ready to and not under pressure . . . a sort of corollary to the consenting adults thing.
If one willingly chooses to be chaste because it fits their own needs best then that is fine and dandy, but to hold it out as a norm that all should strive for, or to pointlessly make virtues for all out of obviously personal decisions is at least wrong-headed if not downright sick. It would be like me saying that homosexuals should behave like straight people just because that works for me. Even for me to say "Isn't it so wonderful that I am straight." is absurd at best. That's how I feel about chastity. Its no better or worse than being gay, straight, bisexual, into BDSM or whatever.
|
I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.46
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #27 on: 2005-05-24 07:03:59 » |
|
Quote:
Quote:| What is wrong with chastity? What does one lose if one willingly chooses to be chaste? |
I don't really see anything wrong with the personal choice of chastity, even if i find it irrational. I think preaching chastity however can have negative results in some instances. For instance, telling young girls that they are not allowed or not supposed to have sex until marriage can send the message that their virginity belongs to their husbands. And this can negatively affect how they view themselves and their place in society.
|
I agree that preaching about anything isnt such a hot idea.
However, can you expand more on why you think chastity is an irrational choice?
|
|
|
|
|
Mermaid
Archon
Posts: 770
Reputation: 8.46
Rate Mermaid
Bite me!
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #28 on: 2005-05-24 07:05:33 » |
|
Quote from: Jake Sapiens on 2005-05-23 23:43:45 That's how I feel about chastity. Its no better or worse than being gay, straight, bisexual, into BDSM or whatever.
|
So, basically, our actions comes down to personal choice.
Agreed.
|
|
|
|
|
Rhysenn
Initiate
Gender:
Posts: 41
Reputation: 5.44
Rate Rhysenn
|
|
Re:Chastity
« Reply #29 on: 2005-05-24 12:36:16 » |
|
Quote:| However, can you expand more on why you think chastity is an irrational choice? |
I suppose that if you want to remain chaste because either you don't enjoy sex, you're afraid of pregnancy or you're afraid of STD contraction, then it makes sense even if others disagree. However, remaining chaste based on morals, when it is not part of some religious dogma, I do not understand the rationality of. I don't believe it leads to the betterment of society, and lack of chastity doesn't hurt anyone (if you are responsible). So why is this moral in place in some secular circles, as it seems? If there is some rationality, feel free to explain it to me. But if one is emotionally ready for sex and is responsible and uses proper contraception, any negative consequences are extremely minimal and i don't really see the drawbacks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
