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Fritz
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #15 on: 2010-02-15 22:04:42 »
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I have been away and am utterly lost on this thread; as to why 'gayness' is up for discussion ?

Turing was certainly, in my opinion from what I have read, executed by the British establishment, for reasons only know to them. His sexual preference was used as a smoke screen I suspect. His military knowledge and not being a God fearing Anglican and therefore not trust worthy, would seem a more likely need for his demise.

Just my ramblings .... let it snow, let it snow ... let it snow ...

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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #16 on: 2010-02-16 06:28:53 »
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[MoEnzyme] Hence your wiki on Hypatia, stories re: her menstrual sheets, marital status, affairs, etc.

[Hermit] I think you miss the point. Any authoritative writing about Hypatia will make a very short book indeed. The total contemporaneous primary source material (written at the time by people knowing her) available to us today is zero. Primary material (people who knew her writing about her) is well under 1000 words (still about 1000 words more than primary pieces written about "Jesus" and far more persuasive having been written by enemies). Secondary sources reporting on her, presumably from material that is lost to us, comprise under 2000 words. Everything else is tertiary and speculation, including the rather nasty little "authoritative work" by Dzielska which is only a little over 100 pages long and the much better pamphlet by Michael Deakin, Hypatia of Alexandria: Mathematician and Martyr is about the same even though it deals extensively with her contributions to mathematics rather than her life.

The primary sources told the stories they remembered. Menstrual rags included. Perhaps 7/500 words or a bit more than 1% of our total primary knowledge of her centers on that story. It cannot be omitted without omitting a significant event about her. Was she married? Not mentioned by primary or secondary sources. Who was her mother? Was she alive or dead? Not mentioned by primary or secondary sources. There is a lot we don't know. There is a lot about any life summarized in 500 words or less that we don't know. Primary and secondary sources made the kind of accusations that were levied against enemies at the time. They did not accuse her of "loose morals" or "affairs" that might have "justified" to some extent, at least in their sick eyes, going after her with shells or pottery to brutally scrape her flesh from her bones while she yet lived until she died of shock or blood-loss. The fact that this accusation wasn't levied at her makes speculation about marriage - which would have been a perfect defense against such lies - perfectly valid and indeed rather likely. Just as it is rather likely that she did actually have a mother and did not spring perfectly formed from Theon's forehead, even if nobody wrote about it.

Against that, we have a huge amount of information about Turing. Most of it not relating to gayness or his suicide. For much of this, we don't need to speculate, we know. Most of it from his own extensive notes and impeccable primary sources. Not that that always solves arguments (What really did happen in Mr Brathwaite's room in Kings on October 26th, 1946?). Still you need to decide what you want to leave out and where to place emphasis on what is left in order to create a persuasive argument in favor of Turing as a Virain Saint. Apropos of something, do you imagine that Turing's lovers, friends  or coworkers called him Allan? More likely he was Turing, or possibly Minimus or Secundus (given that he had an older brother), to everyone but his mother. Assuming you were never introduced to him, and I'm 100% certain you were not, and do not have a comfortable familiarity with him as a biographer of many years standing might develop, calling him Allan doesn't make you sound more knowledgeable about him, it looks and sounds annoyingly patronizing. As do simplistic assertions about his "homosexuality". He was more likely bisexual, as most human apes are, given appropriate surroundings. Given his entanglement and engagement while at Bletchley, apparently broken off by him due to a surfeit of qualms, I would hesitate to be as absolute about it as you seem to be on the basis of some reading, even if it leaves you without a gay icon.

I put "apology" in quotation marks because in my opinion, it wasn't much of an apology at all. Decide for yourself, it is available in full at http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20571. From that, "Thousands of people have come together to demand justice for Alan Turing and recognition of the appalling way he was treated. While Turing was dealt with under the law of the time and we canít put the clock back, his treatment was of course utterly unfair and I am pleased to have the chance to say how deeply sorry I and we all are for what happened to him. Alan and the many thousands of other gay men who were convicted as he was convicted under homophobic laws were treated terribly. Over the years millions more lived in fear of conviction.

I am proud that those days are gone and that in the last 12 years this government has done so much to make life fairer and more equal for our LGBT community. This recognition of Alanís status as one of Britainís most famous victims of homophobia is another step towards equality and long overdue." What a self-serving piece of gratuitous unctuosity - and Jenkins... apparently your mother died this morning (OMPR).


[Fritz] Turing was certainly, in my opinion from what I have read, executed by the British establishment, from reasons only know to them. His sexual preference is used as a smoke screen I suspect. His military knowledge and not being a God fearing Anglican and therefore not trust worthy, would seem like a more likely need for his demise.

[Hermit] Fritz, can you quote any sources on this?

Are you aware that public knowledge of his sexual proclivity was certainly grounds for a frightened government of little men to suspect the worst, in a beautifully circular logical failure 1) He is gay 2) He could be blackmailed by the Soviets if they find out he is gay 3) We must terminate him immediately in case the Soviets blackmail him. Totally failing to recognize that it was their 3 which made 2 possible. Privately homosexuality was known and tolerated. Becoming a don was a recognized shelter for homosexuals, and homosexuality was far from unusual in the Bletchley Park community. This may have been contributed to because most graduates of the British public school and University system would have extensive experience of those alluded to but never discussed "filthy perversions" that teenage boys shoved together in close, primitive, lonely, cold and above all unsupervised quarters ended up experimenting with (usually a combination of whippings and oral rather than anal sexual gratification). Malcolm MacDonald wrote about this a little in Son's of Fortune a compellingly readable sequel to The World from Rough Stones a brilliant period novel about a Victorian woman with a working brain which opened his "Stevenson" family saga.

« Last Edit: 2010-02-16 06:48:28 by Hermit » Report to moderator   Logged

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #17 on: 2010-02-16 12:15:21 »
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on my husband's table, there is a coffee cup with a picture of alan turing on it. it simply says "computing pioneer, alan turing." nothing about his homosexuality. nada. it's chipped and it's handle is broken. he got it years ago from ACM.  after the handle broke, he couldnt bring himself to throw it away. it still sits on his table..holding all his pens and pencils. he doesnt have many 'heros'...turing is one of the handful.

if cov is to start making commemorative coffee cups, what would it say under a picture of hypatia and turing? "hypatia, she showed her menstrual rags." and "turing, he enjoyed a good buggering."? or is it going to be..."hypatia, famous for being murdered by xians." and "turing, famous gay icon."

i.dont.think.so.

this is embarrassing. hermit, despite our many spats and disagreements...i am going to request you to stop encouraging this. "mo" is short for moron.

and no...if there is going to be a vote..mine is NO for including alan turing's "gayness". the cov shouldnt have an official position about people's sexual preferences. as i have told 'mo' before in no unclear terms...i *certainly* would NOT want anything sexual about me examined or approved even by cov or it's members. i am sure...with the exception of morons...others wouldnt want to discuss their sexual preferences...or be the subject of discussion either. if you wish to know someone intimately, take it up with them personally. if you want to know turing intimately, step 1 would be to die.

if any member wants to discuss if cov should have an official position on homosexuality, please start a new thread.

in my opinion, this thread should be closed until a vote is cast re cov and it's position on sexuality.
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #18 on: 2010-02-16 18:42:01 »
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its a dirty job.

but someone's got to do it.
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #19 on: 2010-02-16 23:06:35 »
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Quote:
[Hermit] Fritz, can you quote any sources on this ?

It was a BBC documentary and discussions at the Lodge (oddly enough with a side bar on homosexuality). It was many years ago and was a dislodged factoid ... I will try to come up with some sources, but again that was my version of assimilated "truths".

As you mention,


Quote:
[Hermit]Are you aware that public knowledge of his sexual proclivity was certainly grounds for a frightened government of little men to suspect the worst, in a beautifully circular logical failure 1) He is gay 2) He could be blackmailed by the Soviets if they find out he is gay 3) We must terminate him immediately in case the Soviets blackmail him. Totally failing to recognize that it was their 3 which made 2 possible.

It is again lodged in my mind that his sexual preference was in the end not the issue. Sorry that I can't source it at this time.

Cheers

Fritz
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #20 on: 2010-02-16 23:22:19 »
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Quote:
[Mo]I bet you surprise more people than you initially thought possible. That's the power of stories.

I like that .... and to note that the Meme's trickle out of one's mind with stories as well.

With the Olympics drowning out TV land, as always CoV has: action, drama, laughter, evil (the long mustache kind), scholarly gentlemen, mysterious women for the east, anarchists from the dark continent and somewhere there is a rocket scientist ( I can feel it). 

I love it !

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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #21 on: 2010-02-17 02:21:54 »
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[MoEnzyme] Nice to see that Focus on the Family has an advocate in our midst.

[Hermit] Uncalled for, extremely impolite and totally unfair.




[Hermit] As observed repeatedly by myself, and now mermaid, Alan Turing is an icon not because he was gay but because he contributed to humanity. Just as Hypatia and Darwin are icons because of what they achieved, not because she was murdered and his theory was and is opposed, nor because the persecutors and opponent were Christian zealots (any belief system is essentially UTic). The fact that MoEnzyme appears not to grasp these simple realities is rather sad, because if he is representative of a group, it means that that group apparently totally fails to comprehend why the CoV appoints saints:



Virian Saint

The Church of Virus Illuminates Virian Saints as examples of what Virians should try to be. Virian Saints need not be perfect people, but they have to be dead. Virian Saints should through their lives, works and memories, exemplify the benefits of adopting the VirianVirtues and avoiding the SenselessSins. A desirable, but not compulsory component for the Illumination of Virian Saints is that they engaged against significant odds, in that Virian Saints satisfy our desire for Bronze Age like heroes, with stature greater than the common man. In so doing we acknowledge those who battle great odds and win or valiantly succumb - but whose "rational memes" continue.


Nothing about "I had some inkling that Alan Turing was going to force us to take a stand on homosexuality - and hence GLBT cultural issues in general." whatsoever.

At this point the question dominating my mind is "what we are really voting on*". We seem to have moved a long way from, "He stands definitely as one of the most intelligent and creative specimens to have ever blessed the species in its recorded history. He broke the enigma code. He discovered the Turing machine, and the Turing test, and that barely begins to start the enormous list of the gifts he gave us. And yet the ways we treated him and his humanity in return continues to force us to ask ourselves in the most critically important ways . . . who are we? what are we? I like to think of that as the Turing mirror. I think questions especially the queen needs to ask herself in a very personal way, . . . because she was actually there and as an accident of birth probably had one of the clearest views of the original Turing mirror. Currency, that's something else Turing has." [ Church of Virus BBS, General, Church Doctrine, Saint Alan Turing, Re:Saint Alan Turing", Reply #4, 2010-02-01, MoEnzyme ] to "becaus he is teh gey!"

At this point MoEnzyme has achieved what I would have said simply could not be done at the start of this process, and moved my strong (near lifelong) "Yes" to Alan Turing (and that was knowing about his persecution as a homosexual and suicide from about age 8 or so) to a weak "No" to Alan Turing as  Virian Saint; as I would hate to advance somebody as a saint in the CoV for reasons that others, if they think as MoEnzyme does, might well be those which I totally reject (becaus he woz teh gey!). This has nothing to do with sexuality of any sort, I'd still admire Alan Turing if I learned he enjoyed buggering juvenile field mice so long as the mice were not hurt by his attentions (and as he was a very ethical man, I'm sure he wouldn't have done anything to hurt anyone or anything without excellent reasons) and everything to do with why we choose to create Virian saints, what they stand for, and what our choices say about us. In my opinion Turing remains an excellent examplar but the likelihood that others will think as MoEnzyme appears to, that we choose to hagify him in order to make a statement about homosexuality makes him a poor choice of saint. As an organization, our position on everything else is that members of the CoV make up their own minds about everything and we don't adopt dogmatic positions although we can argue, sometimes strongly, that one stance is preferable to another due to its relationship with the Virian sins and virtues. MoEnzyme has convinced me, in no small part due to his use of invective and ad hominem, that there is no reason to make an exception or be perceived as making an exception, for human sexual affinity or identity or even proclivity.



* [ Church of Virus BBS, General, Church Doctrine, Saint Alan Turing, Re:Saint Alan Turing", Reply #5, 2010-02-06, MoEnzyme ] PS. my consensus forcast for St. Alan Turing, is for yes by quite a margin, however I want to make sure that I'm gathering all the spiritual/religious/memetic implications so that everyone knows what we are really voting on. I'm all in favor of it so far, but I'm happy to admit its more than I initially reckoned on in all its implications. I've shared a bit of my discovery so far, so I'm responsive to real criticism beyond stupid homophobia . . . Alan deserves much more than that IMO. And to be fair everyone familiar with both Church of Virus and/or Alan Turing have not raised any homophobic issues . . . so it should be some cause for celebration, but we should probably wait until the final selection instead of cheering too early for his selection. I'd certainly like the final implications for making him a saint but we shouldn't celebrate too early in any case.
« Last Edit: 2010-02-17 03:33:00 by Hermit » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #22 on: 2010-02-17 02:56:02 »
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[Mermaid] if you want to know turing intimately, step 1 would be to die.

[Hermit] Death brings an end to knowledge. I might suggest that you could dig him up and try carnal relations with the corpus delecti, only he was incinerated (without even an autopsy) and the ashes strewn around precluding that particularly biblical interpretation of knowledge (With a small nod to the late Infek bin Laden of the CoV).
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #23 on: 2010-02-17 08:27:04 »
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Where and how?
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #24 on: 2010-03-26 09:58:25 »
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I changed my mind.

thread unlocked. Count this as notice that I'll probably lock this back up in one week, but its open for 7x24hrs at least.

-Mo
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #25 on: 2010-03-26 14:02:42 »
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Why Mo?

the.bricoleur
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #26 on: 2010-03-26 18:37:29 »
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Quote:
I changed my mind.

thread unlocked. Count this as notice that I'll probably lock this back up in one week, but its open for 7x24hrs at least.

-Mo


Why Mo?

the.bricoleur


Because we went ahead and created the wiki and had the vote, to which I felt this thread was becoming a distraction. Now it isn't. -Mo

PS. if it suddenly turns into a active thread I'll leave it unlocked. Locking again in a week was mostly under the assumption that it goes nowhere. Actually I think I've changed my mind on that too, I'll just leave it unlocked since there's nothing its really distracting from now, especially if its inactive.
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #27 on: 2010-03-26 22:45:58 »
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because he is bored...as there is noone around to kick shit about. cov has become the dumping ground for idle chitchat and sandbox for moronic children. no fucking substance.


Quote from: the.bricoleur on 2010-03-26 14:02:42   

Why Mo?

the.bricoleur
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #28 on: 2010-03-26 23:20:25 »
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2010-03-26 22:45:58   

because he is bored...as there is noone around to kick shit about. cov has become the dumping ground for idle chitchat and sandbox for moronic children. no fucking substance.


Quote from: the.bricoleur on 2010-03-26 14:02:42   

Why Mo?

the.bricoleur

Dear Trollmaid,

Yep, just the kind of bait you love. Welcome back. In honor of your return, or rather in pescience of it, I upgraded you to '3' on Meridion. Joe Dees is sort of the the proof of concept for a '1', and I finally decided that you are a different specimen of troll. 3 says I think you are pretty pointless but I wouldn't want to actually filter you. Thanks for chiming in, you may continue of course. Since you cared so much, I've decided that I won't lock down this thread anytime within the next year at least. You can set your calendar to this post. Plus I'll give at least a week's notice if I do.

-Mo
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Re:Saint Alan Turing
« Reply #29 on: 2010-03-27 03:24:03 »
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Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2010-03-26 18:37:29   


Quote:
I changed my mind.

thread unlocked. Count this as notice that I'll probably lock this back up in one week, but its open for 7x24hrs at least.

-Mo


Why Mo?

the.bricoleur

Because we went ahead and created the wiki and had the vote, to which I felt this thread was becoming a distraction. Now it isn't. -Mo

PS. if it suddenly turns into a active thread I'll leave it unlocked. Locking again in a week was mostly under the assumption that it goes nowhere. Actually I think I've changed my mind on that too, I'll just leave it unlocked since there's nothing its really distracting from now, especially if its inactive.

OK. Thanks for clarifying Mo.

:)

the.bricoleur
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