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Topic: Virian Mysticism? (Read 3708 times) |
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #15 on: 2009-07-13 21:28:49 » |
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Quote from: Tas6 on 2009-07-13 11:44:05 You are correct sir, my error... Old School High Magick, was not for the masses but only for those who were elite. It either would not work or would damage the aspirant. In the modern or post modern world this has been forgotten, the old paths were extremely dangerous psychologically. Some post modern writers on this subject have gone back to this crucial point. Maybe 1 in 50,000 has the potential and then only 1 in the 50,000 of 1s, can actually succeed.
Tas6
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I like the responses of Iolo which you have inspired, but here you have presented us with some unsupported mathematics which I think require some support to be taken seriously. If this is some appeal to elitism, then I suggest considering some response to everyone else. As a universalist it will be difficult to convince me with anything less. In any case I admire your provacateur attitude, our forum can always use a few of those. But on this point, upon your invoking particular statistics, I feel compelled to ask the basis of those. Otherwise, nice to (indirectly-sort-of) meet you. I hope you will at least stay tuned if not actively involved.
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Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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Tas6
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Virian Alchemist
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #16 on: 2009-07-14 08:01:02 » |
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Admittedly the numbers were metaphorical. I am not a universalist, that experiment has been tried by several world religions, with rather interesting mutations (the inquisition, jihad, crusades, etc... just to name a few, Oral Roberts...  ). I am championing an individual elitism, either you can do or you can not of these ancient systems.
But there are many systems of self-development and just because one system rejects you doesn't mean another is not available that will work for you. This is also to point out that not all systems of mystical development are ancient (even though they have a strong memetic legacy), post-modern approaches and even rational-intuitive modern systems are vary viable, including completely personal systems and variants. Just as not everyone can make head way in the CoV and continue to advance without personalization and variance from others views but remain within the same current based upon a very basic common set of ideals. In my case it would be the virtues and the use of memes, towards the goal of Sapience.
Tas6
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the.bricoleur
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #17 on: 2009-07-20 10:00:30 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2009-07-11 13:15:13
Yes.
Your reliance on the dopamine system ignores the following:
The brain’s own inbuilt reward and punishment systems (emotion - Gerald Edelman actually calls these constraints “value systems” (Edelman, G. 2000. “Consciousness – How Matter Becomes Imagination”. Allen Lane, Penguin)) because they add salience (significance and priority) to certain neural performances.
At the heart of these value systems are specific nuclei (small compact cell groups) in the brainstem and hypothalamus. These are known as the noradrenergic locus coeruleus, the serotonergic raphé nuclei, the dopaminergic nuclei, the colinergic nuclei and the histaminergic nuclei.
Thus, you ignore at least 4 other factors involved in the reward/punishment system.
Further to that, you ignore the factor arguably at the centre of the mystical experience - serotonin and the accelarated firings of the locus coeruleus.
So yes, absurd, absurd because it lacks fine graining.
Quote:| Aside from the "feel good" experience, ... |
The release of opiods (the body’s natural pain killers), for example, can reduce fear and produce intensely pleasurable ("feel good") states - different, BTW, to the mystical experience which cannot be said to be "feel good". Opiods are released during meditation, or aesthetically pleasing experiences, or even during extreme physical states such as long-distance running.
I trust that in light of this you would serve the same cautionary tale to a person wishing to visit a gallery as you would to a person wishing to practise meditation.
Absurd. Well, obviously.
-iolo.
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Hermit
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #18 on: 2009-07-20 13:07:00 » |
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[Iolo Morganwg] Your reliance on the dopamine system ignores the following: <snip> Thus, you ignore at least 4 other factors involved in the reward/punishment system.
[Hermit] I think you might be missing the point that it is the well-documented and inherent increased dopamine levels associated with the above practices which appear to correlate with the vast majority of the, again well documented, physiological and psychological effects. The fact that other things, which have not been conclusively implicated in the known undesirable effects, may be happening at the same time would only complicate the analysis if a correlation and a mechanism were found for those other factors.
[Iolo Morganwg] So yes, absurd, absurd because it lacks fine graining.
[Hermit] The sun is also shining when this happens, and I'm sure that some of the people involved may masturbate as they meditate. Does this mean that the sun and masturbation are implicated in the "mystical experience"? Is the fact that other contemporaneous things may happen - and were not mentioned in your example of "fine graining" - also absurd? Or is the fact that the sun is always shining and masturbation is not a prerequisite to the experience sufficient to excuse them? In which case, could it be absurd to suggest that the omission of other inconclusive correlates is absurd?
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Tas6
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #19 on: 2009-07-21 20:17:38 » |
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Still the above view of TM documents only one method, a method that is looked poorly upon by the general Mystical/Magickal community. Meditation is not mysticism! It is a small component and in some cases discouraged if the practitioner shows any of the signs as mentioned above. There is one period called "the Dark Night" classically and is a dangerous time that many never make it out. As I have said, real mysticism is extremely dangerous psychologically and in some cases physically! It has definite stages and many hazards. The mystical experience is just a step in the road of the mystic and not the goal.
Stages of classical mysticism:
1) Conversion
2) Purgation
3) Illumination
4) Dark Night/Abyss/Second Purgation
5) Unitive/Gnosis/Enlightenment
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the.bricoleur
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #20 on: 2009-07-21 20:30:01 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2009-07-20 13:07:00
[Hermit] I think you might be missing the point that it is the well-documented and inherent increased dopamine levels associated with the above practices which appear to correlate with the vast majority of the, again well documented, physiological and psychological effects. The fact that other things, which have not been conclusively implicated in the known undesirable effects, may be happening at the same time would only complicate the analysis if a correlation and a mechanism were found for those other factors. |
If I had a daily schedule of snorting 3g of coke and practising TM you would have a point Hermit. But since I don't, and marginally few of the activities you list are even likely to facilitate a mystical experience, I doubt whether the point you think I am missing is relevant.
If the best you can do is equate the experience with TM and the dopamine hypothesis of schizophrenia, then you have very little.
There is nothing more to be said on the subject - I value the experience, you don't.
Oh well.
-iolo.
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the.bricoleur
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #21 on: 2009-07-21 20:31:56 » |
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For the record, I do not prescribe to the following at all.
-iolo
Quote from: Tas6 on 2009-07-21 20:17:38
Still the above view of TM documents only one method, a method that is looked poorly upon by the general Mystical/Magickal community. Meditation is not mysticism! It is a small component and in some cases discouraged if the practitioner shows any of the signs as mentioned above. There is one period called "the Dark Night" classically and is a dangerous time that many never make it out. As I have said, real mysticism is extremely dangerous psychologically and in some cases physically! It has definite stages and many hazards. The mystical experience is just a step in the road of the mystic and not the goal.
Stages of classical mysticism:
1) Conversion
2) Purgation
3) Illumination
4) Dark Night/Abyss/Second Purgation
5) Unitive/Gnosis/Enlightenment
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Tas6
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #22 on: 2009-07-22 08:01:27 » |
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"For the record, I do not prescribe to the following at all."
"-iolo"
Well most on this board would not as it does not fit the scheme, paradigm (dare I say dogma?) or religion of scientism. The records show that in the western culture, mystics of many varieties tend to be at odds with the more orthodox members of their religion (and quite a few other secular authorities as well). The stages I list are based on the works of Evelyn Underhill, who in my opinion was probably the best expert on this subject in the west (despite her christian bias). These are not the only interpretation of the stages of mystical development, just useful and brief.
The mystical experience is a key in the development of the mystic but not the whole. In many systems of mysticism the aspirant must show a definite degree of maturity, stability and self-discipline, prior to being excepted (though there are plenty of exceptions). A mystic is not looking for just a singular experience, they are looking to become god/idea/state/concept by reaching the Unitive-life.
Tas6
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"Funny goggles and Frankenstein, what real science should be!"
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Mermaid
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #23 on: 2009-07-22 20:04:02 » |
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i suggest ya'll get laid.
sex is mystical enough.
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Tas6
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #24 on: 2009-07-24 09:01:39 » |
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Let see, I'm poly in and until just a while ago was in a three way relationship with my wife and our girlfriend. Yep did last night...
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #25 on: 2009-07-24 09:56:36 » |
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2009-07-22 20:04:02
i suggest ya'll get laid.
sex is mystical enough.
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Quote from: Tas6 on 2009-07-24 09:01:39
Let see, I'm poly in and until just a while ago was in a three way relationship with my wife and our girlfriend. Yep did last night...
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I soooooo glad we finally got down to the important things on this thread. Me too!! Yep, had a threesome last night myself. In the middle of it I got one of my sex kittens to snap a picture of me and my girlfriend. Thought I'd share it with y'all.
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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Tas6
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #26 on: 2009-07-25 12:07:34 » |
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No sorry , no three way last night before, just my love and me. As being poly well, we're not swingers.
I love the picture!
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the.bricoleur
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #27 on: 2009-08-03 02:27:25 » |
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Quote from: Tas6 on 2009-07-22 08:01:27
"For the record, I do not prescribe to the following at all."
"-iolo"
Well most on this board would not as it does not fit the scheme, paradigm (dare I say dogma?) or religion of scientism. The records show that in the western culture, mystics of many varieties tend to be at odds with the more orthodox members of their religion (and quite a few other secular authorities as well). The stages I list are based on the works of Evelyn Underhill, who in my opinion was probably the best expert on this subject in the west (despite her christian bias). These are not the only interpretation of the stages of mystical development, just useful and brief.
The mystical experience is a key in the development of the mystic but not the whole. In many systems of mysticism the aspirant must show a definite degree of maturity, stability and self-discipline, prior to being excepted (though there are plenty of exceptions). A mystic is not looking for just a singular experience, they are looking to become god/idea/state/concept by reaching the Unitive-life.
Tas6
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I don't believe you.
Please see my first post in this thread for the correct context to that last statement.
-iolo ... who got laid last night
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letheomaniac
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #28 on: 2009-08-04 06:59:15 » |
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Mermaid:
Quote:i suggest ya'll get laid.
sex is mystical enough |
[letheomaniac] Well put Mermaid! And if that's not "transcendent" enough for you, you can always throw in a little LSD-25... 
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Tas6
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #29 on: 2009-08-08 00:06:08 » |
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OK! "the Spice must flow!"
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