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Tas6
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Virian Mysticism?
« on: 2009-07-02 10:03:15 »
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I consider myself an Atheist Mystic. Has anyone considered a Virian approach to Mysticism? It's something I'm personally working on at the moment (as my Memetic Alchemy).
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #1 on: 2009-07-02 11:42:52 »
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Quote from: Tas6 on 2009-07-02 10:03:15   

I consider myself an Atheist Mystic. Has anyone considered a Virian approach to Mysticism? It's something I'm personally working on at the moment (as my Memetic Alchemy).

My initial reaction is that Virian tenets are antithetical to (traditional) mysticism. But for the sake of argument what do you mean by "mysticism"? Does it involve any supernatural elements?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism >>

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Mysticism (from the Greek mystikos, an initiate of a mystery religion) is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight.
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #2 on: 2009-07-02 13:07:06 »
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« Last Edit: 2009-07-02 13:28:58 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #3 on: 2009-07-02 18:27:25 »
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[MoEnzyme] Per Lucifer's pasting from wikipedia, it doesn't necessarily sound to me like it MUST be supernatural. For example one could pursue scientific knowlege in a desire to see the universe "the way God sees it". Here the metaphorical construct of omniscience serves as a cognitive map to strive towards a more objective understanding of the universe. In otherwords it seeks to understand the universe "as it really is", and not just the way I subjectively experience it. Many early scientists saw theirs as a religious undertaking -- a hermeneutics of the creation directly, as an alternative to or even in addition to the exegesis of religious texts.

[Hermit] If Special Relativity is correct, and its predictions have been tested to a quite remarkable degree, proved competent, and have not yet been successfully challenged, then there cannot be a "God's Eye View" as only spacetime is observer independent, and observers, who always have a perspective in different inertial frames (although the differences may be infinitesimal and it is sometimes possible to define tensor mappings between them) must measure different times, lengths, and masses.

[Hermit] Your case becomes even more hopeless if you attempt to retreat into some kind of "metaphysical reality", including objectivism, because it is simply not possible to place the self outside of reality in order to view reality. In other words, given that all metaphysical knowledge has to be formulated within some symbol system, so too, all metaphysical knowledge (and synonyms and quasi-synonyms such as meaning, reference, comprehension and understanding) is fully dependent on presuppositions about symbols -  which are, by definition internal referents making the very concept of an external metaphysics logically incoherent (as we saw in the sad disintegration of Allie).

[Hermit] So whether you remain grounded in the physical universe or try to take refuge in 'meaty-pie-sex', logical coherence demands that each observer develops an independent perspective and any pretence to a god's eye view is washed away by Hermit's improved vision cleanser :-)

[Hermit] Ultimately it is only by abandoning the rock of omniscience that one can build an objective understanding of the Universe which, somewhat paradoxically must be based in the way you subjectively experience it, because that is the only way you can experience it in order to be able to develop a potentially valid emergent cognitive map based on the perception of self- and other-consistent observations which you can then iteratively share (preferably via the scientific method) in order to seek validation for your weyken.

[Mo] Assuming one isn't holding to any specifc dogmatic belief about a supernatural yet intervening god thingy, but rather sticking to a prudent "god of the gaps" instead, who is to say that this kind of mysticism can't continue to serve as a driving template for genuine scientific curiosity?

[Hermit] Me?

[MoEnzyme] Can't scientific curiosity be compatible with the pursuit of a "conscious awareness of an ultimate reality"?

[Hermit] Can you translate "conscious awareness of an ultimate reality" into something meaningful to me? Before you can determine what a "conscious awareness" can encompass, I think you may need to determine what is an "ultimate reality" and how you plan on recognizing it when you see it?

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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #4 on: 2009-07-02 21:49:32 »
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Quote from: Hermit on 2009-07-02 18:27:25   

[MoEnzyme] Per Lucifer's pasting from wikipedia, it doesn't necessarily sound to me like it MUST be supernatural. For example one could pursue scientific knowlege in a desire to see the universe "the way God sees it". Here the metaphorical construct of omniscience serves as a cognitive map to strive towards a more objective understanding of the universe. In otherwords it seeks to understand the universe "as it really is", and not just the way I subjectively experience it. Many early scientists saw theirs as a religious undertaking -- a hermeneutics of the creation directly, as an alternative to or even in addition to the exegesis of religious texts.

[Hermit] If Special Relativity is correct, and its predictions have been tested to a quite remarkable degree, proved competent, and have not yet been successfully challenged, then there cannot be a "God's Eye View" as only spacetime is observer independent, and observers, who always have a perspective in different inertial frames (although the differences may be infinitesimal and it is sometimes possible to define tensor mappings between them) must measure different times, lengths, and masses.

[Hermit] Your case becomes even more hopeless if you attempt to retreat into some kind of "metaphysical reality", including objectivism, because it is simply not possible to place the self outside of reality in order to view reality. In other words, given that all metaphysical knowledge has to be formulated within some symbol system, so too, all metaphysical knowledge (and synonyms and quasi-synonyms such as meaning, reference, comprehension and understanding) is fully dependent on presuppositions about symbols -  which are, by definition internal referents making the very concept of an external metaphysics logically incoherent (as we saw in the sad disintegration of Allie).

[Hermit] So whether you remain grounded in the physical universe or try to take refuge in 'meaty-pie-sex', logical coherence demands that each observer develops an independent perspective and any pretence to a god's eye view is washed away by Hermit's improved vision cleanser :-)

[Hermit] Ultimately it is only by abandoning the rock of omniscience that one can build an objective understanding of the Universe which, somewhat paradoxically must be based in the way you subjectively experience it, because that is the only way you can experience it in order to be able to develop a potentially valid emergent cognitive map based on the perception of self- and other-consistent observations which you can then iteratively share (preferably via the scientific method) in order to seek validation for your weyken.

[Mo] Assuming one isn't holding to any specifc dogmatic belief about a supernatural yet intervening god thingy, but rather sticking to a prudent "god of the gaps" instead, who is to say that this kind of mysticism can't continue to serve as a driving template for genuine scientific curiosity?

[Hermit] Me?

[MoEnzyme] Can't scientific curiosity be compatible with the pursuit of a "conscious awareness of an ultimate reality"?

[Hermit] Can you translate "conscious awareness of an ultimate reality" into something meaningful to me? Before you can determine what a "conscious awareness" can encompass, I think you may need to determine what is an "ultimate reality" and how you plan on recognizing it when you see it?

Kind Regards
Hermit

Hey MoEnzyme!

I like your new ponytail.



Walter

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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #5 on: 2009-07-03 10:01:04 »
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First define supernatural. In all my years of Mystical/Magickal study and practice I have yet to have an experience that I could call supernatural. Some I could not explain at the time rationally, oh yes... but that is due to a lack of experience and context on my part. Real mysticism is a direct, hard look at reality, as it is from my individual perspective,  it is raw and often painful. The main difference between a Mystic and a Scientist is their tools. Method wise the real mystic, not the new age flake, is practical and methodical. For him/her the myths, prayers, recollections and meditations, are nothing other than the technology that they have at their disposal. All this is nothing more than symbols that help the Mystic use his mind to its' fullest capacity (like the term mantra- mind tool).
The Virian virtues of Reason, Empathy and Vision, are in my experience the very bed rock of mysticism and its' quest.

Reason: without it a mystic is doomed to take what ever dregs that come up from his subconscious as reality. In other words, if an mystical experience cannot be applied directly to your everyday life in a practical manor then it is delusion at best and insanity at worst.

Empathy: the universe/reality is not human (or sentient in my experience), in working towards experiencing and transforming one's self, one must learn to hone empathy to a razor's edge as it is your connection to everything.

Vision: to see beyond the box, to allow oneself to take the road of a Striving-person, it is also drive and inspiration. Without vision there is no mystic or scientist and for that matter no human being. This is not in any way a supernatural function, it is a natural as imagining a
blue sky. Vision=Reason+Empathy.

Virian Illumination/Enlightenment: Sapience
All this functions upon the individual Awakening the three virtues to a unitive functioning state: Sapience. Which I would not describe as salvation in the christian context (I would use the term Awakening or Meta/Uber-cognition for Virian salvation myself) but would fit closer to the term Gnosis: direct experiential knowledge. But for it to be Sapience it must be practical and able to be applied in a way that serves the individual in their life.  Sapience= Vision(Reason+Empathy), the goal of Virian Mysticism, the unitive state where you are your meme.

I am a meme in the Virus, I will not fear my mortality!

Tas6
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« Last Edit: 2009-07-04 17:27:27 by Tas6 » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #6 on: 2009-07-06 14:09:02 »
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The first step in this discussion should be to realise that there is a difference between spiritual (mystical) experience and spiritual (mystical) belief.

I am interested in the former and could not be bothered with the latter.

-iolo
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #7 on: 2009-07-06 19:07:59 »
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Agreed!
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #8 on: 2009-07-06 22:22:51 »
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'A mystical experience' = a misleading label for an inherent but unusual brain state.

It can be achieved through:

    Drugs
    Prayer
    Meditation
    Flagellation
    Starvation
    Torture
    Watching propaganda (especially Faux TV?)
    Sex
    Sexual deprivation
    Song
    Epilepsy
    Surgery
    Electrical stimulation
    Magnetic Stimulation
    Mechanical Stimulation

Generally the change involves repetitive triggering of the dopamine reward circuits (which eventually causes hypodopamine related syndromes) and desynchronization of the brain resulting in the interpretation of random internal triggers as having originated outside the body.

Some or perhaps all of these trigger modes have the potential of causing irremediable brain changes. As only one brain is involved and the brain has no error detection, limited correction facilities and a primary task of reassuring its owner that it is functioning correctly even as it veers completely off the rails, the subject is usually incapable of determining the scale of the changes or whether they are beneficial or harmful. In about 20% of people, particularly those with a weak self identity, deliberate engagement in the stimulation of "mystical" experiences results in diagnosable psychiatric conditions.

This suggests that unless you dislike the way your brain functions it is advisable to approach potential changes with caution. While the following was compiled around Trancendental Meditation, most of the above techniques use similar pathways and thus the symptoms are also common.

Possible Physical Side-Effects
  • uncontrollable fatigue, sleeping during the day
  • insomnia and hypersomnia
  • withdrawal-like symptoms when stopping or missing meditation
  • sleep paralysis (often understood as one form of "witnessing sleep")
  • night-time hallucinations (hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations, often understood as "visions")
  • possibly narcolepsy (See Persinger's research, referenced here)
  • eating disorders, including anorexia, binge eating, morbid obesity
  • stomach and bowel complaints
  • chronic neck and back pain (especially among "Yogic Flyers")
  • chronic headaches
  • difficulty with the menstrual cycle
  • involuntary body movements (twitching, spasms, head shaking, etc. in, and out, of meditation)
  • serious health effects, including death, when TMers turn to Maharishi Ayurveda and ignore traditional medical treatment.

Possible Emotional Side-Effects:
  • anxiety or fear
  • obsessive ideas
  • pathological guilt
  • dissociation (trancing out, spacing out, staring into space, forgetting what one is doing, losing a space of time, feeling as if one is not real, inability to remember events or periods in one's life, feeling separate from one's body or mind)
  • pseudo-identity (possessing both cult and non-cult personalities, similar to multiple personality disorder)
  • unusual difficulty remembering names or words, frequently forgetting in mid-sentence what one is saying, being aware that others are speaking but not understanding what they are saying
  • suicidal ideation, gestures, or successful attempts
  • "nervous breakdowns" (lay term for depression or other mental illness that results in inability to function normally — or hospitalization)
  • identity confusion: rapid changes in core beliefs such as spirituality, sexuality, personal interests; inability to settle on a career; unstable interpersonal relations
  • psychosis (most likely an already-present tendency to this disease is triggered by excessive meditation)
  • depression
  • unusual avoidance of difficult people, situations, memories — frequently resorting to meditation or sleep to deal with them
  • derivative narcissism
  • delusional thinking
  • auditory and visual hallucinations
  • divorce, frequently multiple (frequently attributed to rapid spiritual growth and "outgrowing" one's partner)

Possible Cognitive Side-Effects:
  • significant difficulty with memory and/or concentration
  • incessant jumping from one thought or action to another, constant activity without accomplishing a goal, distractibility

Possible Social Side-Effects:
  • significantly decreased job or educational performance
  • difficulty obtaining or maintaining a job, jumping from job to job
  • relocating frequently, to the detriment of the individual

Refer Also (Google "research TM harmful)":


« Last Edit: 2009-07-07 14:54:59 by Hermit » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #9 on: 2009-07-11 10:51:20 »
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Knowledge of the material origin of the experience does not detract from its profound pleasure and value, in fact, it only serves to feed the latter. I also argue that it really has no discernible content - it is an experience without models.

Hermits pathologising of the experience, whilst not being false does skirt dangerously close to the absurd. Therefore, while digesting his information consider the significance of the analogical experience - the mystical experience - and remember, there is nothing extra-biological happening here. The experience of being interconnected tends to erode one’s experience of fear. This in turn makes one more open to the information around you, whether that is the sensual information of sight, sound, taste and touch, or information about the experiences of others around you – especially of the suffering of others. This is often information you have filtered out. The mystically experience of everything being interconnected also tends to erode cultural categories. All of this has been framed as increased compassion and understanding. Significantly, most people who value the mystical experience also experience an appreciation of paradox, an increase in their sense of humour and they find the world a far more amusing place to be in.

The desire to change consciousness arises from something intrinsic to human nature.

-iolo
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #10 on: 2009-07-11 13:15:13 »
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Absurd?

Comparative anatomy informs us that mammals developed dopamine reward circuitry very early and evolutionary psychology suggests that this is as an aid to socialization. The fact that, at least in humans, high dopamine levels massively reduce the ability to discriminate against faulty patterns points to the same thing.

The dopamine system is a reward system, so of course it is pleasurable to trigger it - although, like most brain state alterations, it is a self limiting and acclimatizing phenomenon. In other words, the more you trigger it, the more of a trigger you need and the less reward you receive.

Aside from the "feel good" experience, any value outside of the socialization context for which we developed it, is arguable (as previously noted, we have only one brain and cannot evaluate changed brain states for ourselves, while attempting to evaluate the  brain state of others is always challenging), although the well documented psychological and physiological consequences of acclimatizing the body to high dopamine levels and reducing the effectiveness of socializing (through desensitization of the dopamine reward pathway) are not.
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #11 on: 2009-07-11 17:06:43 »
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Opinions like studies vary at best. But never forget to look at the down side to any enlightenment as that will be your down fall. Plus classically mysticism/magism (to use older terminology for magician) were the pursuits of the elite and I am not talking just about intellectual, financial or social status. Either you could do the praxis safely and successfully or you couldn't. Classical Mytho-magickal tradition in these fields lets one know,"Hey you may not be able to do this system."  An individual may just not be evolved enough to handle the psychological stress. The similarities between Hermetics and transhumanism, philosophically are closer than either would admit. 

Mysticism is not meditation, meditation is a tool used by it but with out all the other tools it is a road to insanity... no matter what any new-age guru has to say.

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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #12 on: 2009-07-12 22:57:26 »
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Beware of using "evolved" as a synonym for "advanced." It isn't even vaguely close. Evolution does not speak to improvement, only to suitability to survive long enough to pass on one's alleles in the existing local environment. An "advanced" capability (e.g. big brains) can easily be sacrificed to the necessity of the moment, whatever the necessity may be (easier births? lower nutritional needs? lower energy demand? better fitting hats made of coconut shells appealed more to prospective mates?), and may never be recovered (e.g. modern humans have much smaller brains than our ancestors) because evolution does not conserve that which has been pruned, even if the pruning occurs due to short term phenomena or the lifestyle after pruning turns out worse for the inheritors than the lifestyle prior to evolving (e.g. sickle cell anaemia vs susceptibility to malaria).

Highly evolved usually means short life cycles and limited adaptability to change, meaning that selection happens relatively rapidly and the lives impacted are short, unhappy and brutish. Which is probably not what you were thinking of when you wrote, "An individual may just not be evolved enough to handle the psychological stress." no matter how apposite this may be in actuality.
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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #13 on: 2009-07-13 11:44:05 »
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You are correct sir, my error... Old School High Magick, was not for the masses but only for those who were elite. It either would not work or would damage the aspirant. In the modern or post modern world this has been forgotten, the old paths were extremely dangerous psychologically. Some post modern writers on this subject have gone back to this crucial point. Maybe 1 in 50,000 has the potential and then only 1 in the 50,000 of 1s, can actually succeed.

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Re:Virian Mysticism?
« Reply #14 on: 2009-07-13 21:21:57 »
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« Last Edit: 2009-07-13 21:47:48 by MoEnzyme » Report to moderator   Logged

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