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   Author  Topic: Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!  (Read 5198 times)
deadletter-j
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Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« on: 2005-01-30 22:50:43 »
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Consider this as a potential fundamental rule of memetics.

Infectious memes generate noise.

When the noise in the system begins to decrease, the system may be heading for Entropy!

It is as this point that the conversation can be transformed in a way that 'takes it to the next level'.


The quantity of CoV posts, as well as a number of other memetic cues, lead to me to propose that this conversation can use a fresh perspective, a systemic shift in perspective.

Please will someone notice that the conversation is flagging, and that I am asking for an idea to be heard - an idea that I believe will bring an enormous conversation cascade to an entirely new level of CoV.

thanks for listening!

-b
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #1 on: 2005-01-31 10:50:22 »
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Quote from: deadletterb on 2005-01-30 22:50:43   

Please will someone notice that the conversation is flagging, and that I am asking for an idea to be heard - an idea that I believe will bring an enormous conversation cascade to an entirely new level of CoV.

We're listening. What is the idea?
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #2 on: 2005-01-31 16:23:15 »
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Thanks for responding. I was hoping to begin the idea in the thread and flow of the CoV discussions, and yet the recent stillness (perhaps because colleges are at midterms and high schools just ended the semester) has left a quiet space in the discussion.


In fact, I feel just as when the character is talking at a party, and a lull in the conversation catches me shouting extra loud, just as I say...

&*&!###@!


The idea has to do with conversation structure/memetic application itself. I've been practicing inserting memes AND talking to people about the system, and the language for turning memetic insertion into a scientific experiments is becoming clear. My ability to explain what I mean is growing better, and I ask for your help - if I don't make sense, please point out the flaws/misunderstandings, so that I can make myself clearer.


Here's a starting point for the discussion.

It is my intent to describe why we might need to coalesce this set of conferences into one conference, and begin a new one with a more complex framing question.

1) viral memes cascade into noisier conversations
2) reframing the conversation lends order to the noise
3) the new conversation applies information drawn from the root.
4) The new conversation furthers the intent of the root conversation.


When memes insert, they cascade.

The conversation gets louder. The conversation grows. There's more talking, more people, more ideas about the central meme. Ideas about what it IS. Ideas about how it APPLIES. Ideas about how it is being ACTED upon. Ideas about whether it is doing what it INTENDED to.



So let's suppose that I do have a good idea. Where would we talk about it? The entire bulletin board system is in the natural 'first dump' chaos ordering, where all the brains who cared about anything posted anywhere they naturally connected to the conversation.

If it gets quiet at the CoV, or in a discussion where I am layering in a meme, I see that entropic forces are beginning to push at the system. Danger, Will Robinson! Time to kick it up a notch.


Here's a second point in the discussion.

What are we going to DO with memetic theory?

If we ask what we are going to do next, then suddenly we need a clearly parsed down version of memetic theory itself. When ideas are NEEDED, they flow into order in our brain.  I propose next an application conversation. With all of the raw knowledge in the conferences, can we separate a place to talk about how we are going to APPLY that knowledge?  The conversation about application will send us back to this as a reference database, and we will begin to resort the information as community.


Now, third:

An open-source collective processing science

I believe that the component I have to offer is a methodology for memetic insertion. The mapping of memetic insertion experiments to the scientific method. It turns out that

memetic insertions are best examined by groups of brains.


Fourth:

I'm asking to begin a conversation, different enough in its intent that I believe it needs a separate space. It is about bringing you the ideas, strategies and enactments of attempted memetic attempts. The information in it may relate to the pure discussions here, and also they will need to be organized into various subcategories themselves.  What's excellent about this idea is that it also demonstrates the way in which two memes, two conversations, can reinforce the insertions of each other.


It's also about contrast

The CoV collecting the entire BBS under one link at the top, perhaps called "Root Discussion" or some similar, and then beginning a new conversation, perhaps called a "Strategizing Discussion" or some similiar, will attract attention.



Final Thoughts -
I am not, immediately, asking you to create this separation. What I am asking for is to be heard about why we might need that, a separate container, for the meme that I hope to bring.  A component that is probably clear is that, should there be such a drawing of lines between discussions, and then the interest in the new conversation fails to materialize, we are no better off than before.


This is root structure to the discussion itself - a discussion of what place such a discussion, a discussion of actual strategies, and even better, a discussion of groups around the country actually experimenting in collective insertions, reporting back to have this group of brains examine the attempts, and help make them better.



I apologize for any lack of clarity - until I know what is important to our community, I will not know what language to frame it in in order to get the idea to 'catch'. Please ask direct questions and I will answer them as clearly as I can.

Metahazard - I have declared my intent to distribute an idea, and an intent to explain to the community what I am doing as I am doing it.  How meta!
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #3 on: 2005-05-07 03:35:20 »
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Reading messages on boards takes time.
Knowing whats important and interesting and needs discussing takes looking at different discussions, reading through them, and time.
The noise created by discussions is hard to get through.
Discussions get more spread out and less organized the longer they go on.
Big discussions take even longer to read because lots of people comment on them.

The less work one has to do reading things, the more likely someone is to take the time to read it.
If discussions could have an intro- summed up ideas, and in lamen, more people would read.

Ive noticed a lot of stuff around here seems to be very essoteric. If you dont know what I mean by that then thats perfect proof, because esoteric means 'understanding confined to a small.' a group such as people with very large vocabularies. Now I'm intelligent to figure out most of what is said, but some people would even look at entropy and despite going through an entire year of chemistry in highschool have already forgotten that its synonymous to (like) disorder.


I definately think that there should be some way of ordering things, but I'm not sure how. What do you guys think of how?

I picture a page, related to this board and its system, that consolidates posts by highlighting ideas and leaving the topic open for more discussion. Itd be cool if anyone, or at least most of us, can edit the sumation ourselves like a wiki, or we could have moderators. Is there some way we can have a wiki for every, or at least many different topics?

The summation would be processed so as to have breif descriptions of the ideas that oppose eachother. It could have an overview of what ideas back that idea up, and ideas that refute that, it could have different sides taken on a debate. then it would have evidence to back up either point if someone was really interested, but the chances are someone is not going to read all that much to be convinced against what they already believe.

The main focus at first should be on a much more comprehensive church doctrine geared towards church infection and how it should positivly affect the lives of those who receive the infection. They benefit, the church benefits. I would like to see a page dedicated to this debate that isnt too long to read, the short things to read are backed up by more comprehensive links and asides, and a way of judging which side is most mematically infective through comprehensive polls. people outside the church should be able to read it and know whats going on. They should also be impressed by our uniquely organized debate.
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #4 on: 2005-05-09 00:43:54 »
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Yes, the VirusWiki is supposed to serve that purpose but it requires a lot more work. It is easy to link from this forum to the wiki by surrounding any WikiWord with double percent signs "%%" in the markup. Linking back to the forum is a little more work, you have to use the URL in the wiki markup.

Maybe we can try out your idea with a single important discussion to see how it works. Any suggestions?
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #5 on: 2005-12-04 12:17:30 »
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Delete this post if it's not relevant enough, because I want it to stay focused. But I'm assuming the basis here is that conversations in this forum (like all forums the internet over) start with an idea and fall apart into disconnected suggestions until there are no conclusions, just a bunch of chatter.

I want to see forums break out of their run-of-the-mill system in the next ten years. Forums are boasting all sorts of bells and whistles like emoticons and special font-glitzing programming. But those things only mask the fact that the process of information was never made any more dynamic. It's just a bunch of decorative chatter instead of normal chatter. One statement by one person, followed by another statement by another person, and so on. It's like trying to build a staircase without any idea what floor you're trying to reach.

We could all do more to improve it, like hyperlinking key phrases to other references (which I should do more). But we also need more systematic motivation. Eg: Alternation in the form of: Theory, practice, theory, practice, theory . . . You write something here and get information, you apply it in life, you write the results and get feedback, apply it to life. No more theory theory theory- confusion.
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #6 on: 2005-12-04 12:49:43 »
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Quote from: gaiaguerrilla on 2005-12-04 12:17:30   

We could all do more to improve it, like hyperlinking key phrases to other references (which I should do more). But we also need more systematic motivation. Eg: Alternation in the form of: Theory, practice, theory, practice, theory . . . You write something here and get information, you apply it in life, you write the results and get feedback, apply it to life. No more theory theory theory- confusion.

Great idea... in theory. Is it that simple in practice? I'm a bit skeptical because if it was that simple wouldn't everyone be doing it already? Perhaps not, given how long it took between Aristotle and Francis Bacon (2000 years).

So let's put this theory into practice and see what happens.
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #7 on: 2006-02-09 21:47:43 »
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Just a few ideas:

1) Ask users to associate keywords with all posts so that other users can skim through posts faster

2) Create an RSS feed for this site so that programs like google desktop will popup messages when new posts have been written or replied to.

          Just found that you have already done this Perhaps the link could be more prominent.


3) I've found that the bulletin board at slashdot is effective because users can reply to replies as well as the original post, building a tree like structure over time. This minimises the amount of information one needs to read in a post as entire branches can be pruned from the trunk.

4) Is the connection to the word Lucifer the best thing for a memetic virus of this type, it seems to identify the virus to the anti-bodies of scepticism, while the best viruses are never detected as viruses. Anyone who cares to research further will realise that the Lucifer reference is more about renouncing dogmatism than anything else, but many probably wont.


        I realise you have an FAQ about this (Lucifer Comment) but I'm not sure from a memetic standpoint that it will propogate so well, the irony will be lost on many.
« Last Edit: 2006-02-09 23:41:16 by Gods Imaginary Friend » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #8 on: 2006-02-10 18:41:59 »
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Thanks for the suggestions. This forum software doesn't support the features you request. Do you know of any that do?
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #9 on: 2006-02-12 07:21:50 »
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The code that they actually use on the slashdot site is freely available under the GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE and is called slash code. I'm not sure how much configuration is required to use it, but I'm pretty sure it will run with MySQL and PHP.
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #10 on: 2006-02-13 22:57:48 »
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Quote from: Gods Imaginary Friend on 2006-02-12 07:21:50   

The code that they actually use on the slashdot site is freely available under the GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE and is called slash code. I'm not sure how much configuration is required to use it, but I'm pretty sure it will run with MySQL and PHP.

Does slash code allow users to associate keywords with all posts so that other users can skim through posts faster?
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #11 on: 2006-02-13 23:07:34 »
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Not that I'm aware of, though I'm sure Virians could add keywords to the top of their messages.
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #12 on: 2007-01-04 23:02:11 »
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I concur with the ideas put forth in this thread.  CoV has reached a point at which I believe it may be time to evolve with regards to the site, especially in the modern web 2.0 frenzy.  (Besides which, this BBS system refuses to allow me to update my profile.)  YaBB SE isn't even a viable site anymore.

I propose two possible alternatives for expansion (which could also be a 2 part strategy):

1.  New software.  A quick skim for forum software comes up with this:

http://www.simplemachines.org/
SMF is Free, written in PHP and also uses MySQL.

http://www.vbulletin.com/
vBulletin is also PHP and MySQL-based.  A permanent license is $160.

http://www.forum-software.org/
This site is basically a blog for forum software comparison.

2.  Focused infiltration.  Basically, creating subnetworks/communities of the group in other major social networks:

MySpace
TagWorld
Facebook
Multiply
WebJam
Orkut
LiveJournal
iMeem
Tribe.net

Each community/subnetwork contains the VirusWiki and a link back to the primary site.  (Calling each one Church of Virus allows existing viriians to find the subsites and increase presence.)  Using RSS and Atom, posts can be cross-aggregated between sites to ensure no content is isolated.  This will also increase the draw of endusers.  And it's free to set up profiles/communities on almost all these sites.

I'm sure there are probably other sites that would allow us to enable these concepts as well...see here.

http://go2web20.net/
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #13 on: 2007-01-07 15:58:36 »
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Quote from: deus|diabolus on 2007-01-04 23:02:11   

1.  New software.  A quick skim for forum software comes up with this:

http://www.simplemachines.org/
SMF is Free, written in PHP and also uses MySQL.

SMF is just the latest version of YaBB SE.


Quote:

2.  Focused infiltration.  Basically, creating subnetworks/communities of the group in other major social networks

Excellent idea.
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Re:Danger, Will Robinson! Entropy sucks heart out of CoV!
« Reply #14 on: 2007-01-13 20:48:23 »
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2007-01-07 15:58:36   


Quote:

2.  Focused infiltration.  Basically, creating subnetworks/communities of the group in other major social networks
Excellent idea.

When and where shall we begin?  I would recommend the following communities for starters:

MySpace
Orkut
Bebo
Tribe.net

There's a new Dutch site called Zaadz that also bears looking into.
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