I'm a new member of CoV. My interest in memetics brought me there and I must say I agree with almost all of CoV's theses, but I'm not sure about one question (and maybe you'll judge me as a hopeless heretic ):
There is a lot of thing you have to know to be able to identify yourself with theses of CoV and memetics - I personally read "Selfish gene" with great enthusiasm and there are lot of provocative ideas, which lot of people won't admit (as so as they wouldn't admit e.g. absence of their free will based on physical-reductionistic determinism (or quantum determinism - if you want)). But if you think about physical laws - they will inevitably lead you to these facts, because are derived from the "knowledge of the rules of the world".
But does the CoV differ from other memes so much? What is its purpose? It seems that you cannot convert people, who doesn't already agree with your theses (because it is simply too dificult - its based on difficult ideas and the path to understand it is too complicated). But why to convert people, who already agree with your theses? I see only one good thing about it - there is certainly lot of people of similar view of the world so they can discuss with each other well. (And it is a brilliant idea.) But why you don't just create discussion instead of church?
I'm not against it, I'm just trying to provoke the debate about it,
Re:The purpose of CoV
« Reply #1 on: 2004-12-21 11:32:04 »
A friend of mine, Ford Vox, created a movement called "Universism" that is very successful because Vox is a good publicist. He is not an enthusiast of memetics but he is quite good at it anyway. His first correct step was to identify a large, untapped target audience. Universism does not seek to attract only intellectual eggheads.
He is excellent at creating slogans, flash animations, websites, mailing lists and messageboards. He has requested and received Universist musical compositions. He harnessed the power of www.meetup.com, stirred up controversy surrounding his Universism article on Wikipedia, held live chat events with bestselling authors, and managed to get articles and opinion editorials written about the movement in the Birmingham Weekly, BBC News and the New York Times. All of this generated streams of new memberships to the web communities.
I don't know if CoV's goal is social change, but there's no question Universism is putting into practice the kind of counter-religious memetic campaign we in the Church of Virus mostly just talk about. It's as if we predicted it and Universism is the realization of it. As a memetic lifeform, it's very competitive.
He believed in a door. The door was the way to... to... The Door was The Way. Good. Capital letters were always the best way of dealing with things you didn't have a good answer to.
A friend of mine, Ford Vox, created a movement called "Universism" that is very successful because Vox is a good publicist. He is not an enthusiast of memetics but he is quite good at it anyway. His first correct step was to identify a large, untapped target audience. Universism does not seek to attract only intellectual eggheads.
Are you saying that CoV seeks to attract only intellectual eggheads?
It does look like Universism is kicking butt out there.
Re:The purpose of CoV
« Reply #3 on: 2004-12-21 20:15:26 »
Yes, I definitely agree that memetics and, as you say, Universism creates counter-religious memetic campaign that is becoming very succesfull (I have found a lot about it even without knowing anything about CoV), but I still have a feeling that it is not CoV that is propagating memetics and anti-religious campiign, but that it is memetics thanks to which CoV wants to became well-known.
All those "clerics" and "reputations" seems a bit redundant, don't you think?
Do you think that someone will hear about Church of Virus and then he will become stickler for memetics, or do you rather think that only people who already agrees with ideas of memetics will become CoV's members?
Re:The purpose of CoV
« Reply #4 on: 2004-12-22 09:47:25 »
I have heard that many people were introduced to memetics through the CoV. And some people that didn't agree with the CoV initially eventually came around after investigating. The CoV is like any other memeplex, it is easier to infect people that are already infected with the underlying ideas, but it isn't strictly necessary.
Re:The purpose of CoV
« Reply #5 on: 2005-01-04 23:00:56 »
Thanks Lucifer,
I am now taking the point of view that Curch of the Virus consists first and foremost of the the virtues (Reason, Empathy, and Vision) and the sins (Hypocrisy, Apathy, and Dogmatism), and that my personal journey to this conclusion occured through Church of the Virus and its interest in the science/art of memetics. I like this because I feel that I personally had a hand/voice in the articulation of these tenents especially through resolving the issue of dogmatism and my interest faith/phaith. I know that many other people may get here by another path, and through discovery of other sins and virtues, but this remains my personal path. In any case, the key remains those things that we can count on our fingers and I remain interested in these other intersections as well.
I have been a bit less involved lately, but this remains more an issue of my personal life than the memes which infect me. I personally am predicting my return to this memepool in the near future. If you too feel compelled to own and work with these sins and virtues, I want to talk to you too.
Re:The purpose of the Metavirus
« Reply #6 on: 2005-01-26 21:56:19 »
Everybody produces their own small part of the virus, neh? Well, here is my part.
1) The purpose of the CoV 2) The Metavirus - all the memetics together, infecting the planet 3) The Metavirus - Acting on intent while declaring intent, and hiding it all in a joke 4) Metavirus - Examples in the language of action 5) Next Steps for CoV
1) The purpose of the CoV.
I just got here, and yet I can see clearly the purpose of the CoV. For now, it is talk. When the CoV is activated, it will be to provide the kind of knowledge base the memetic movement needs to keep it rolling.
The CoV is creating an echoing chamber which hears and understands memetics. As memetics gets louder and louder, the CoV will be packed with active memeticists.
Like me. Like all of us.
2) The Metavirus - putting together memes everywhere
I came to memetics through searching - this 'thing' happened to my brain around September that suddenly made all-too-clear everything that had ever happened to me, or that I had studied. I teach high school mathematics, history, and I think about language and learning and all of those other ideas that are just now become part of the same discussion.
At first I could hack people almost too easily. I could run circles around them. Then, as I went farther into it, I could tell what worked better than others. Then I was able to articulate the basic theory.
Then I learned that everything failed if I didn't have positive intent.
Then I bounced the theory off of a whole lot of people. I learned what made sense to them. I learned what it looked like when a group of people became infected with an idea. I learned how to talk about it. I got examples.
Then I tried infecting memetic communities. Ones that were already fairly well infected with memes about memes. One thing I articulated early on was that the farther a person is from a meme, the easier it is to get a toehold. The closer someone is, the more they want to attach their own previous understandings to the symbols we offer.
I learned the word 'semiotics'. I later learned 'memetics'. Now I know exactly what I am looking for. I am looking for the _language_ of memetics. Where's the basic articulation of the strategies for insertions?
3) The Metavirus: Problem Solving Strategies for Effecting Positive Change through Memetics.
My part of the virus is right at the heart of language, learning, communication of all stripes, math, symbols, metaphor, history, and future.
I will try to parse it down very, very tightly, for the purpose of this post.
If we have positive intent, understand the pattern of memetic absorbtion, use language that enhances positive cascade, listen for the recipients encoded need/intent, and follow through in the language of action, the meme cascades.
4) The Metavirus: Examples from the real life
We are working out a 'system' for changing people one by one. We are creating a video library of our efforts, to get many inactive secondary infections off each first active infections. We are spreading our articulation of the system through a hand-to-hand pirate mail system. The network of the pirate mail system spreads a) the moviemaking meme, b) the memetics-as-strategy meme, c) the anti-corporate network meme, d) the collective conversation meme, e) the empowerment meme. We are going to take every single office in Seattle in 2007, in order to demonstrate the power of an idea. Even if we don't take every office, if we can just demonstrate the power of an alternative view of human networking, that idea will spread, and the Party Party (problem solvers party, the nutbutter party, the Rational Party, call it what you will) will literally spread across the planet.
If the general populace is infected with the idea that a group of people has a new kind of power, and if that group can demonstrate that through and through our intent is absolutely positive, they will come roaring towards us until the moment when one of us gives them any cause to rethink our intent.
5) CoV next steps:
I'm here.
I think I have the kernel for an important next step in the conversation - an organized discussion of memetic actions, so that we can parse down through experimentation the basic principles for memetics. The discussion can be in a topic of your choosing, or it can be its own conference - I think it should be the latter.
I am asking permission to infect you with a meme-complex about memetics and viruses. I do this because we need your help. We need all the minds who know memetics on the planet to begin watching all of the first attempts at memetic insertion - to help us figure out what isn't going right, and to help us apologize and soothe those who we accidentally piss off.
May I infect you with a strategy for changing the entire planet for the better?
Re:The purpose of CoV
« Reply #7 on: 2005-05-07 04:04:07 »
I think that everyone here seems very intelligent because only the intelligent came across the idea of what a meme is. Then again it could be the nature of perscribing to church doctrine that makes so many people here seem so intelligent. I think its a strength of course.
Anyways, yeah, look at how universism is going- theres a market for this stuff. We have one big advantage- the blunt blatent truth about our understanding. The very nature of our name being an indication of how we are. I think things are going to really start taking shape around here soon.
but right now i have to point out that it pretty much is just discussion. we can do more. We need some volenteers that are real familiar with web page design and forms who can do some fancy stuff for us- then we can infect more people that arnt so into mematics, who havnt read the selfish gene.
deadletterb, you can infect me. I'm with you. very nice post btw. hopefully we can break some real ground.
I have been teaching myself perl, php and mysql for the past year or so, developing programming as a hobby. I plan to improve my web design skills continuously in the future, and I have some design ideas for memetic tools that I would like to implement to help the memetic movement.
I will try to formulate my ideas into a paper or some sort of design documentation, and then release the idea in a downloadable format. I will post more as my ideas develop.
I have been teaching myself perl, php and mysql for the past year or so, developing programming as a hobby. I plan to improve my web design skills continuously in the future, and I have some design ideas for memetic tools that I would like to implement to help the memetic movement.
I will try to formulate my ideas into a paper or some sort of design documentation, and then release the idea in a downloadable format. I will post more as my ideas develop.
This sounds great! CoV seems to have a knack for attracting intelligent, creative, yet otherwise idle programmer types. I'm not one of them, but thank Lucifer for creating so many of them so I can share their playground!
I'm not really that great at anything, but if you ever have a simple idea for a discussion forum or something, let me know. I'm very interested in the capability of the internet to change the nature of propagation of memes.
I think that everyone here seems very intelligent because only the intelligent came across the idea of what a meme is. Then again it could be the nature of perscribing to church doctrine that makes so many people here seem so intelligent. I think its a strength of course.
Anyways, yeah, look at how universism is going- theres a market for this stuff. We have one big advantage- the blunt blatent truth about our understanding. The very nature of our name being an indication of how we are. I think things are going to really start taking shape around here soon.
but right now i have to point out that it pretty much is just discussion. we can do more. We need some volenteers that are real familiar with web page design and forms who can do some fancy stuff for us- then we can infect more people that arnt so into mematics, who havnt read the selfish gene.
I'm new to the CoV, as of this evening. I had heard of memes before finding this, in the New Scientist magazine, but not read anything into it. I may come to read books on the subject in future, as through the CoV site I've become that little bit more aware of memetics. Other people on the forum have pointed out that CoV tends to infect those already with some idea of memetics and I guess that's partly true with me; I feel that there is a cultural evolution going on within pockets of humanity. CoV should, perhaps, therefore infect those who have some idea about memetics, but may not know to call it by that name.
I actually came to the site through my StumbleUpon toolbar in my browser, which has a button to take you to random websites within your interest categories, as one of my interests I set was atheism. CoV appealed to me above other atheist forums, as it seems more tolerant of others religious beliefs, and less of an "anti-religion". The other forums had a very negative approach to theists and served only to attack beliefs. I generally felt that such a negative campaign ultimately isn't helpful. From what I have understood so far about the CoV, it's very positive in it's ideals and approaches the subject of theistic religion in a more understanding light. I think CoV, and other systems like it, will serve humanity better as it actually provides a replacement for theistic religion. Rather than pulling the rug out from under humanity it seems to be replacing the old rug with a nice shiny new one. Humans seem to need something like religion in their lives; there must be some reason why it exists in every culture in the world.
What also appeals to me is the fact that CoV and it's doctrine are adaptable. Atheism and agnosticism today appear to have an increasing number of subscribers and I think this could be attributed to the divergance of modern culture and old world religious beliefs. Such religious ideals fail to hold true today, being based on scriptures that are, culturally, thousands of years out of date and even the stories and messages within them may not have been accurately written or interpretted. A changeable system such as the CoV should survive a long time, if not indefinately, because of it's ability to adapt to modern culture.
I've probably said nothing new by any of this, and I've mostly drawn on the ideas already on the board, but I hope the view of a recent convert with little knowledge about memetics will be somewhat helpful. Serves as an introduction to me too.
Re:The purpose of CoV
« Reply #12 on: 2005-10-31 13:12:56 »
Yes, this is the general attitude of the Church of the Virus that I have enjoyed over the years. For all intents and purposes I think we are actually more completely atheists in that we acknowledge and can even empathize with the memetic power that religion has over the minds of humans while the very same realization makes us even more certainly atheist than others who still believe that religion can be effectively dealt with through intellectual argument. Granted the intellectual arguments aren't without interest, but by themselves rarely change anybody's mind. We have found at Church of Virus that greater understanding of evolution actually has a slightly better chance at catalyzing some change of mind. Not really an argument against God, but more of an argument for a negligent God (if not non-existent). I often speculate that if I were to believe in a anthropomorphic supernaturalism now, it would have to be a lot more like a Greek god this way. If I wanted to imagine something friendlier it would have to be more like an angel, and like myself struggling against the greater senselessness of humanity and the universe, but not seriously responsible for it . . . like Lucifer for example
I think that everyone here seems very intelligent because only the intelligent came across the idea of what a meme is. Then again it could be the nature of perscribing to church doctrine that makes so many people here seem so intelligent. I think its a strength of course.
Anyways, yeah, look at how universism is going- theres a market for this stuff. We have one big advantage- the blunt blatent truth about our understanding. The very nature of our name being an indication of how we are. I think things are going to really start taking shape around here soon.
but right now i have to point out that it pretty much is just discussion. we can do more. We need some volenteers that are real familiar with web page design and forms who can do some fancy stuff for us- then we can infect more people that arnt so into mematics, who havnt read the selfish gene.
I'm new to the CoV, as of this evening. I had heard of memes before finding this, in the New Scientist magazine, but not read anything into it. I may come to read books on the subject in future, as through the CoV site I've become that little bit more aware of memetics. Other people on the forum have pointed out that CoV tends to infect those already with some idea of memetics and I guess that's partly true with me; I feel that there is a cultural evolution going on within pockets of humanity. CoV should, perhaps, therefore infect those who have some idea about memetics, but may not know to call it by that name.
I actually came to the site through my StumbleUpon toolbar in my browser, which has a button to take you to random websites within your interest categories, as one of my interests I set was atheism. CoV appealed to me above other atheist forums, as it seems more tolerant of others religious beliefs, and less of an "anti-religion". The other forums had a very negative approach to theists and served only to attack beliefs. I generally felt that such a negative campaign ultimately isn't helpful. From what I have understood so far about the CoV, it's very positive in it's ideals and approaches the subject of theistic religion in a more understanding light. I think CoV, and other systems like it, will serve humanity better as it actually provides a replacement for theistic religion. Rather than pulling the rug out from under humanity it seems to be replacing the old rug with a nice shiny new one. Humans seem to need something like religion in their lives; there must be some reason why it exists in every culture in the world.
What also appeals to me is the fact that CoV and it's doctrine are adaptable. Atheism and agnosticism today appear to have an increasing number of subscribers and I think this could be attributed to the divergance of modern culture and old world religious beliefs. Such religious ideals fail to hold true today, being based on scriptures that are, culturally, thousands of years out of date and even the stories and messages within them may not have been accurately written or interpretted. A changeable system such as the CoV should survive a long time, if not indefinately, because of it's ability to adapt to modern culture.
I've probably said nothing new by any of this, and I've mostly drawn on the ideas already on the board, but I hope the view of a recent convert with little knowledge about memetics will be somewhat helpful. Serves as an introduction to me too.
I actually came to the site through my StumbleUpon toolbar in my browser, which has a button to take you to random websites within your interest categories, as one of my interests I set was atheism.
If you like StumbleUpon you may be interested to know that its creator Geoff sometimes hangs out in our IRC forum, channel #virus on irc.lucifer.com.
Quote:
I've probably said nothing new by any of this, and I've mostly drawn on the ideas already on the board, but I hope the view of a recent convert with little knowledge about memetics will be somewhat helpful. Serves as an introduction to me too.
Re:The purpose of CoV
« Reply #14 on: 2005-11-01 20:27:03 »
Wow, you know if I ever met Geoff on #virus I had no idea who he was. Stumbleupon has brought a lot of traffic to my book.
I like the idea of CoV and the people here which is why I have hung around some, but I think that if CoV is failing to kick butt it's because, while CoV is about memetics, it doesn't really exploit memetics the way the more ruthless memetic structures do. At a certain level CoV is too busy being truthful to recruit aggressively.
I have written a few pages of a text I call Testament of One which I intended to be the kernal of a religion along my mindset, starting with the assertion "we are all God," which is also a common epiphany among metaphysical people. It lays a Genesis-like groundwork by which a godlike entity created the Universe in order to explore its own fantasy of what it would be like not to be alone. (One result is that I learned spell checkers really don't like the word "ourself.") I find what I've written so far powerful in the way that the first chapter of MOPI seemed, but as with MOPI I have an idea how to extend it, but I'm not sure if the mood to continue it will return -- or if I want it to.
Anyway, FYI I have popped into IRC a few times but nobody much has been there since that bitch Katrina wrecked my plans to see moose, bears, and a certain modern religious leader. I'm OK and my house is OK and my job and company are OK but my hometown is a fucking mess and the future is a lot less clear for me than it was two months ago. It is really hard to get into the mindset of godlike machines when something as prosaic as the weather has caused you so much grief.
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