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   Author  Topic: Suicide  (Read 4659 times)
David Lucifer
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Suicide
« on: 2002-12-22 11:47:50 »
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I recently got some email that asked


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what are the church's thoughts on suicide? 

and what about after we're dead, regardless of suicide or good deeds?

How would you answer?
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #1 on: 2002-12-23 12:38:35 »
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what are the church's thoughts on suicide? 

It's a personal choice


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and what about after we're dead, regardless of suicide or good deeds?

Well, do you remember what it was like before you were born? It's like that.
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #2 on: 2002-12-23 18:05:36 »
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David Lucifer
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #3 on: 2002-12-29 15:19:22 »
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I replied (before starting this thread) to say that though suicide may be a personal choice and right, most people that commit suicide suffer a fatal lapse in one or more of the virtues: reason, empathy, vision.
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David Lucifer
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #4 on: 2002-12-29 15:21:30 »
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I created a wiki page: OnSuicide.

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rhinoceros
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The Neuroscience of Suicide
« Reply #5 on: 2003-01-18 10:41:43 »
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[rhinoceros] This Scientific American article deals with the biological side of the issue -- the 'nature' rather than 'narture' side.

Why? The Neuroscience of Suicide 
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=0006AF90-5BC7-1E1B-8B3B809EC588EEDF


[rhinoceros] Research seems to show that suicide is somehow associated with serotonin, an "impulse-dampening" neurotransmitter molecule.


<quote from the article>
Serotonin is a neurotransmitter, one of the molecules that jumps the tiny gaps known as synapses between neurons to relay a signal from one such brain cell to another. Tiny membranous bubbles called vesicles erupt from each signal-sending, or presynaptic, neuron, releasing serotonin into the synapse. Receptors on the receiving, or postsynaptic, neurons bind to the neurotransmitter and register biochemical changes in the cell that can change its ability to respond to other stimuli or to turn genes on or off. After a short while, the presynaptic cells reabsorb the serotonin using molecular sponges termed serotonin transporters.

Serotonin somehow exerts a calming influence on the mind. Prozac and similar antidepressant drugs work by binding to serotonin transporters and preventing presynaptic neurons from soaking up the secreted serotonin too quickly, allowing it to linger a bit longer in the synapse and continue to transmit its soothing effect.

<snip>

More than two decades of reports have linked low serotonin levels in the brain to depression, aggressive behavior and a tendency toward impulsiveness, but the evidence has been particularly confusing with regard to suicide.

Despite the inconsistencies, the bulk of evidence points strongly to a problem in the brains of suicides involving the serotonin system. That line of thinking has been bolstered by the recent findings of Arango and Mann.

<snip>

The HPA is responsible for the so-called fight-or-flight response exemplified by the racing heartbeat and sweaty palms you get after a close scrape while driving,...

<snip>

Serotonin fits into the HPA because it modulates the threshold of stimulation. Researchers such as Charles B. Nemeroff of the Emory University School of Medicine and his colleagues are finding that extremely adverse early life experiences, such as child abuse, can throw the HPA axis off kilter, literally leaving biochemical imprints on the brain that make it vulnerable to depression as a result of overreacting to stress later on.
<end quote>


[rhinoceros]
That said, and provided that the research results are valid, there is still an important issue.

Let's say we can pre-emptively use drugs on high-risk people, altering their brain chemistry so that we protect them from committing suicide by making them less impulsive. Is this a fair price? Not so obvious to me. Avoiding death is one issue. Living is another one.

An "easy answer' is that drug use could be ok if desired by the person. But in the real world, don't these things often turn into fads which have been making millions of people reliant on magic solutions such as Prozac? Are these people better off than those who live in places where the fad has not caught on?

Just a thought.

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David Lucifer
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Re:The Neuroscience of Suicide
« Reply #6 on: 2003-01-18 15:45:07 »
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Quote from: rhinoceros on 2003-01-18 10:41:43   
An "easy answer' is that drug use could be ok if desired by the person. But in the real world, don't these things often turn into fads which have been making millions of people reliant on magic solutions such as Prozac? Are these people better off than those who live in places where the fad has not caught on?

It sounds like you are against the use of Prozac. Is that true? If so, why?
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Re:The Neuroscience of Suicide
« Reply #7 on: 2003-01-18 19:09:38 »
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[rhinoceros]
An "easy answer' is that drug use could be ok if desired by the person. But in the real world, don't these things often turn into fads which have been making millions of people reliant on magic solutions such as Prozac? Are these people better off than those who live in places where the fad has not caught on?

[David Lucifer]
It sounds like you are against the use of Prozac. Is that true? If so, why?


[rhinoceros]
Almost true. Of course, things like Prozak have their uses and their side-effects. For cases where a mostly organic problem has been diagnosed as the source of depression, Prozak could be an acceptable choice. Of course, even then, someone might prefer other ways of fighting depression, for various reasons, such as minimizing the external dependencies. It is a mater of personal stance.

However, I also see a fad-driven abuse. In consumer societies which harbor non-biological kinds of depression due to human alienation and distrust, inaccessible goals, imposed false goals etc. millions of people have found an easy way out: the miracle pills.

What I find wrong with that is the "being happy in hell" or the "take your pill and run" attitudes. People who are content with that have no need to address the underlying social/personal problems, and this is not ok.

Of course, my stance is basically also a "choice" issue. I do realize that other people see the problem of the socially generated depression in consumer societies as the price we have to pay for technological progress. I am all for technological progress, but I'll concede only so much from my life.
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #8 on: 2003-01-27 13:58:15 »
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David Lucifer
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #9 on: 2003-01-28 09:35:01 »
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Quote from: ishadrach on 2003-01-25 00:14:45   

if my brain functions to a degree that i cannot tell up from down, heaven from hell, and my own brain kills me by deciding i'm ready for the next adventure or evolution of soul (that we do not and cannot fully understand);

Belief in an afterlife is nothing more than wishful thinking. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that there is anything after life, and to think otherwise is a very dangerous line of thought. It may be one of the most pernicious memes in existence today, I shudder to think how many people have thrown away the only life they have for nothing.
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #10 on: 2003-01-28 16:30:52 »
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« Last Edit: 2003-01-29 16:56:34 by Joe Dees » Report to moderator   Logged
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #11 on: 2003-03-17 12:39:03 »
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Arg, so much shockingly formatted text
I think I'm gonna commit suicide

Was good up until your post Joe, Seriously.
You could have at least trimmed it down for the topic
or linked out to it.
« Last Edit: 2003-03-17 12:43:20 by Lukian The Wizard » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Suicide
« Reply #12 on: 2003-05-06 20:48:29 »
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #13 on: 2003-10-04 22:56:40 »
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Just based on the fundamental concepts of Virus, I would intially consider suicide to be a potential virian sin from a counterproductive and apathetic standpoint (not to mention failure to consider the consequences of your self-termination which will be visited upon those who care about you).  Of course, when you factor in the virtue of reason, there are (I'm certain) ways that certain situations could rationally merit suicide.  But how would you convince someone that suicide was a bad idea without an answer based in faith (e.g. "Life is never as bad as we think it is, and if you give it a little more time, things will probably look up for you", which implies that you must have faith in the unknown future and disregard the extremely disheartening facts of your present)? 

Talking someone out of suicide over the end of a relationship is debatably easy - there are millions of other possibilities for dating happiness, many of which will be better than the last, and all you should have to do is repeatedly convince the person of this in some fashion.  But what if it was a person who has been out of work for months with no seeming end in sight, resulting in the loss of home, material possessions, and possibly also family?  Someone who feels that they are only occupying a space better vacated to make room for others (perhaps a loner with no friends and family)?  Or someone dying of a terminal illness?  I'd be interested in seeing replies to this.
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Re:Suicide
« Reply #14 on: 2003-10-05 11:15:58 »
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I heard somewhere that the suicide capital of the world is Lithuania. Is it because of the city called Plunge or what?
Suicide rates in the Baltics have been shown to be so high not only because their country is up the creek, but apparently because alcohol is very much tolerated over there.
I agree that suicide is a completely personal choice, and the belief in some sort of afterlife is more prevalent that simply the belief in a God.
How can you convince somebody that there is no afterlife, if you can't even convince them that there is no God.

Furthermore would you want to stop such irrational people from committing suicide?
Errr not that I have anything against the buggers.
« Last Edit: 2003-10-05 13:43:43 by Kid-A » Report to moderator   Logged

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