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   Author  Topic: Evolution as a secular religion  (Read 6831 times)
kirksteele
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #30 on: 2003-10-05 16:51:52 »
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Not necessarily. Create also means "to cause to exist; bring into being, to give rise to; produce". Evolution does in fact create new species.



The context of the verb to "create" is one of totality. Anything that is created is spontaneously rended from NOTHINGNESS into COMPLETENESS. Ergo the use of the term "creation-ism" in "Christian Science," and other attempts to reign in knowledge to the support of belief.

Evolution, the dynamic process, is not an agent of its own volition. It has no mind, it has no choice. Evolution is. Evolution does not do.

"Evolution" is the semiotic icon for a concept that is in fact quite elegant. "Evolution" is a semiotic linguistic icon that is so elegant that it is imperiously misused on an habitual basis, here, at "CoV." Evolution is a label that is used to describe the set of scientifically derived theorems which explain the processes by which life, in its multivariate forms, comes into existence.

I am not going to describe the precepts of EVOLUTIONARY THEORY; it is old hat and REQUIRED READING here at CoV. I am pointing out that, once again, a meme has fallen into hypocritical disuse here.

Call it by its proper name Evolutionary Theory. This alleviates this asinine habit of using a gerund in place of a proper term. Let us stop "doing" Evolution. When a person falls into the trap of concatenating a name, the person is very likely to concatenate the knowledge associated with the name. This is all too obvious the case with Evolutionary Theory and its pedestrian attempt at a synonym, Evolution. Once the habit of using the misnomer "Evolution" has subsided, then the problem of taken its precedents out of context can be addressed.

Evolution does not "create."

Evolutionary Theory IS.

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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #31 on: 2003-10-06 08:49:29 »
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« Last Edit: 2003-10-07 04:06:49 by Wonko » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #32 on: 2003-10-07 16:38:33 »
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Quote from: Wonko on 2003-10-06 08:49:29   

I appreciate your call to use scientific language.  But I think science has to make the next logical step.

[kirk] It is called "precise" language. Science doe not take the step. People assert that a reified entity, vis-a-vis, "science" or "evolution" or "government" do something. like "take the next logical step." What is really being done here is the person(s) doing the asserting are commiting a fallacy of argumentation. What they should "logically" be stating instead is something like: "I feel that your position is incomplete." And then tell the person why they feel it is incomplete. AND SUPPORT IT.

In the beginning there were rocks, water, chemicals and no life.  A little bit later there were people hacking at their computers wondering how to name that process that made them come into existence.

[kirk] Again, the misuse of language persists. The processes described by the Theory of Evolution do not do anything. To "do" is to imply volition. It implies that there is a volitive causal determinism in the process. Evolutionary processes are spontaneous in origin.

We all know that things fall down, we can calculate their acceleration, jet nobody knows why.  We could call it theory of gravity, or gravitational(?) theory, which doesn't make our disknowledge about a little bit better, but we call it gravity. 

[kirk] op cit

On the other hand, science has studied the Theory of Evolution for quite some time now, it has been simulated on computers, shown to apply to economics as well, life and our personal experience is full of it (just think of dog breeders).  The inner workings of the Theory of Evolution are much better known than the inner workings of gravity, which is pure speculation up to now.

[kirk] non sequitor

The Theory of Evolution is a fact.  There is no alternate to it.  It is an unconscious process which creates and changes life or, in other words, Evolution is the process of chance and feedback creating and altering the meta-structure of matter.

Let's call it Evolution.



[kirk] There has been no consistant assertion of support above. Wonko asserts, (I paraphrase for clarity) "The term Evolution is a consitent use of language when it is used to delineate the processes that are described by the Theories of Evolution."

[kirk] He has offered no salient or consistent support of this assertion.

Let's call it completely lacking of critical discourse.

Try again.

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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #33 on: 2003-10-08 04:49:52 »
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #34 on: 2003-10-25 14:22:59 »
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #35 on: 2003-10-25 16:17:00 »
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Quote from: Epidemic on 2003-10-25 14:22:59   

Kirksteele has a point in that 'creation' implies something from nothing.

Creation implies no such thing. No one would dispute that an artist can create a portrait from materials such as paints and a canvas.
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #36 on: 2003-10-25 16:49:07 »
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Science was never designed to prove or disprove the existance of a god/gods, or to determine an Ultimate origin as you call it, if anything science has proved the opposite, there was no ultimate origin, by thinking about this rationally there was no creation in the sense of something being made from nothing.

Besides do religious nuts actually say that a God created the universe/whatnots out of nothing...no, and dont say that it implies that, because that is subjective.

So talking about creation in the sense that it is creating something from nothing is wrong any way you look at it, call it *poof* if you like, but not creation.

Creation is where one thing is made from another thing, or many things, whether it is in a biblical terminology or not.
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #37 on: 2003-10-26 00:07:35 »
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #38 on: 2003-11-04 11:55:36 »
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #39 on: 2003-11-06 19:51:27 »
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #40 on: 2003-11-08 21:44:46 »
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #41 on: 2003-11-09 13:31:31 »
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Quote from: Arcanis on 2003-11-08 21:44:46   

Evolution did not create life, you're looking for abiogenesis. As for the second free will assertion, Artificial Intelligence shows no such thing. I'll refer you to the book Freedom Evolves by Daniel C. Dennett. Dennet is one of the leading A.I. practitioners our there (along with John McCarthy and Marvin Minsky, and both praised his book). If artificial intelligence concluded your claim then the above men would have arrived at the same conclusions by now. However, they haven't, for reasons that Dennett makes clear in his book.

Dennett is one of the leading philosophers of mind (along with Paul and Patricia Churchland) but he is not an AI practitioner AFAIK. I would also strongly recommend Freedom Evolves, it is the best explanation of free will I have read to date.
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #42 on: 2003-11-09 19:25:40 »
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #43 on: 2003-11-10 15:30:40 »
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Re:Evolution as a secular religion
« Reply #44 on: 2003-11-11 12:08:34 »
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Quote from: Epidemic on 2003-11-10 15:30:40   

How does one "practice" Artificial Intelligence? I'm probably just getting nit picky over semantics, but that terminology just bothers me.

My understanding is that an AI practitioner is one who builds AI systems as opposed to, say, only writing about AI. Many do both, of course.
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