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Topic: Sharia (Read 3355 times) |
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David Lucifer
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Sharia
« on: 2013-04-13 03:14:45 » |
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Let's define Islam as a system of beliefs that upholds Sharia over Common and Civil law in the cases where the rulings conflict.
Let's define a Muslim as a follower of Islam.
Given those definitions Islam must be opposed and Muslims must be opposed. I think this is what Sam Harris is saying and I agree. Those who disagree must either disagree with the definitions or they must be Muslims.
Am I wrong?
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Fritz
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Re:Sharia
« Reply #1 on: 2013-04-13 09:52:14 » |
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2013-04-13 03:14:45
Let's define Islam as a system of beliefs that upholds Sharia over Common and Civil law in the cases where the rulings conflict.
Let's define a Muslim as a follower of Islam.
Given those definitions Islam must be opposed and Muslims must be opposed. I think this is what Sam Harris is saying and I agree. Those who disagree must either disagree with the definitions or they must be Muslims.
Am I wrong?
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The logic is sound, yet I seem to be able to substitute pretty much any religion into that logic and I would conclude that all religions must be opposed. I think singling out Muslims might be problematic when "Religion Ruins Everything" is the issue for me.
Am I wrong?
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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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Fritz
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Re: Sharia and every other dogma induced rule
« Reply #2 on: 2013-04-13 09:59:55 » |
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Pretty good example of religious bias going against the best interest of the citizens of planet earth.
Cheers
Fritz
(thanks to [Mo] for pointing this one out)
GOP Rep. Barton Cites Biblical ‘Great Flood’ As Evidence That Climate Change Isn’t Necessarily Man-Made
Source: Medalite
Author: Andrew Kirell
Date: 2013.04.11
Speaking before the House Subcommittee on Energy and Power this Wednesday, Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) cited a biblical flood as an example of climate change that was not anthropogenic in nature.
During the committee’s hearing on a bill that would give Congress the authority to approve the petroleum-delivering Keystone XL Pipeline, Barton asserted his support for the project before noting that he does not deny climate change, but rather, that he disputes whether the phenomenon is man-made.
“I would point out that people like me who support hydrocarbon development don’t deny that climate is changing,” the Texan congressman said. “I think you can have an honest difference of opinion of what’s causing that change without automatically being either all in that’s all because of mankind or it’s all just natural. I think there’s a divergence of evidence.”
He then cited Genesis 6:9′s “Great Flood” narrative, in which God flooded the earth as divine retribution with the intention of remaking it using the animals aboard Noah’s ark, as an example of climate change that was not caused my mankind.
“I would point out that if you’re a believer in the Bible,” he said, “one would have to say the Great Flood is an example of climate change and that certainly wasn’t because mankind had overdeveloped hydrocarbon energy.”
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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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David Lucifer
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Enlighten me.
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Re:Sharia
« Reply #3 on: 2013-04-13 20:50:20 » |
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Quote from: Fritz on 2013-04-13 09:52:14 The logic is sound, yet I seem to be able to substitute pretty much any religion into that logic and I would conclude that all religions must be opposed. I think singling out Muslims might be problematic when "Religion Ruins Everything" is the issue for me.
Am I wrong?
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Fortunately followers of every other religion uphold the law of their land over their religious law (otherwise you would see Christians stoning adulterers to death).
Sharia is the only religious law system on the map (in yellow).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_legal_systems
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Fritz
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Re:Sharia
« Reply #5 on: 2013-04-15 00:18:08 » |
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Research:
Cheers
Fritz
UPDATE: Religious Legal Systems in Comparative Law: A Guide to Introductory Research
Source: http://www.nyulawglobal.org/Globalex/Religious_Legal_Systems1.htm
Author: Marylin Johnson Raisch
Date: 2009
<snip>
Introduction
Religious legal systems
Religious law emanates from the sacred texts of religious traditions and in most cases purports to cover all aspects of life as a seamless part of devotional obligations to a transcendent, imminent, or deep philosophical reality, either personal or cosmological. Religion for law must be defined broadly but its truth value need not and ought not to be addressed. Most religious law gradually came to apply in its most institutional form to its own organizations and to familial or contractual matters. Application to ritual is a gray area but generally excluded from discussion and classification.
Religious law in this guide is seen as a branch of comparative law and legal study. Further, it is argued here that comparative law itself may most usefully be seen as part of the tradition of legal philosophy. Far from being wholly academic, however, comparative law is a practical approach in the service of 1) legal education 2) the appreciation of treaty implementation and 3) choice of law in the new world of public/private international law known as transnational law. At the conclusion of this guide to sources is a brief discussion of this approach to comparative law.
After the events of September 11, 2001, academic interest in Islamic law and countries governed by its principles as implemented along with secular positive law grew in an attempt both to understand the legal culture of middle eastern conflicts and to explore ways to address issues arising in multicultural jurisdictions with greater understanding. It is clear that in areas of private law such as family law, inheritance, and in come commercial transactions, several religious systems influence secular law or are incorporated as a regime which may or must be applied in those areas or to members of certain religious communities. As sources for legal research in these areas are inter-disciplinary and often less known in the world of legal research, an overview of the major world systems, and where and how they are implemented, is offered.
General sources
· Religion and Law Research Consortium
· Included as a taxonomic concept, London Business School (UK) site
· Internet Sacred Text Archive
· Religion Case Reporter (for U.S. cases)
Constitutions, sources of texts: essential for determining if religious law applies in certain legal systems and in what areas of law
· Constitutions of the Countries of the World, OceanaOnline (paid subscription database)
· Constitution Finder, University of Richmond
· World Legal Information Institute
· International Constitutional Law
· CIA World Factbook; updates on world constitutions
· World Legal Systems, University of Ottawa, contains excellent maps; overview of all traditions in jurisdictions of the world however in this area exercise caution: information for the legal system of Israel indicates the application of Talmudic law. This is not actually the case; Israel is a secular state applying many kinds of religious law in certain areas for certain communities, only one of which is Jewish. Islamic and other religious law also may be an option for religious communities in Israel.
· Berkley Center for Religion and World Affairs at Georgetown University, Religious Perspectives Database. From the web site: "The Religious Perspectives Database allows users to compare and contrast key scriptural passages across five traditions [Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and Judaism] and five themes [inside/outside, justice/injustice, health/illness, wealth/poverty, and peace/violence]. The column and row headers point to introductory essays by Georgetown professors. Behind the individual cells of the grid you will find short essays on how each tradition approaches each theme, and links to key scriptural passages." Direct link: http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/
· Traditions- legal anthropology, links to ancient law, semiotics , and hermeneutics:
· Alan Watson Foundation, http://www.alanwatson.org / (Roman law and legal transplants; Prof. Watson’s bibliography is especially useful for canon law studies)
· World Digital Library, (LOC, Alexandria Egypt), http://www.worlddigitallibrary.org/project/english/news /
· Famous World Trials, http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/ftrials.htm (trials of Jesus, Galileo, Salem witches)
· Church and State- AcademicInfo, Law and Legal Research: Law and Religion - U.S.-based site for links relating to church/state issue, Native American religious issues, and U.S. Supreme Court cases.
· General humanities guide to research on world religions (print and electronic, such as CD ROM encyclopedias of Judaism and Islam, free and paid databases and text archives)
· General comparative religion - U.K. site for resources on world religions
· British Academy Portal - follow the 'Theology and Religious Studies' link from the home page
Comparative law treatises with treatment of religious law:
· David, Rene and John E.C. Brierley. Major legal systems in the world today: an introduction to the comparative study of law. 3rd ed. London: Stevens, 1996, 1985.
· Glenn, Patrick H. Legal traditions of the world: sustainable diversity in law. 3rd ed. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 2007.
· International Association of Legal Science. International encyclopedia of comparative law. Tübingen: J.C.B. Mohr (Paul Siebeck); New York: Oceana, 1973- .
· Redden, Kenneth R.; Brock, William Emerson. Modern Legal Systems Cyclopedia Buffalo, N.Y., U.S.A.: W.S. Hein, 1984- (loose-leaf; 10 vols.)
· Zweigert, Konrad, and Hein Kötz. Introduction to comparative law. 3rd rev. ed. Oxford: Clarendon Press; New York: Oxford University Press, 1998.
Classification
Aaron Kuperman, cataloger in the Library of Congress Social Science Cataloging Division, Law Team, has observed that "'Religious law' is a square peg that doesn't fit well in the round hole of American law." Ritual traditions and modern legal anthropology create most of the blurred distinctions between legal and non-legal classification decisions in particular collections. Mr. Kuperman, along with Jolande Goldberg, Senior Cataloging Policy Specialist in the Cataloging Policy & Support Office at the Library of Congress, as well as Lesley Wilkins and the Islamic Legal Studies program at Harvard Law School, have worked on the development of the LC classification schedules for religious legal systems:
· KB - comparative religious law
· KBP - Islamic Law
· KBM- Jewish law
· KBR- for Canon Law.
· KBS - the Catholic Church and Modern Canon Law
· KNS- Hindu Law
<snip>
lots more reading .....
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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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Hermit
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Re:Sharia
« Reply #6 on: 2013-04-28 12:49:23 » |
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"This is not actually the case; Israel is a secular state applying many kinds of religious law in certain areas for certain communities, only one of which is Jewish. Islamic and other religious law also may be an option for religious communities in Israel."
Typical special apologetics for Israel, but totally misleading if not technically absolutely untrue. Still if you believe this malarkey, there may be a certain bridge in Brooklyn waiting just for you... Try, for a nightmarish example, to get a civil marriage between a couple, one of whom is Jewish; or a non-Jewish divorce, in Israel. refer e.g. http://www.myjewishlearning.com/israel/Contemporary_Life/Society_and_Religious_Issues/Freedom_of_Religion/civil_marriage_in_israel.shtml
As was the custom in those more enlightened times, the UN conditionally established Israel on the basis that it would be a constitutional, humanist state providing equal secular governance for all. As has been the case ever since, Israel has scribbled its own fascist-Talmudic-apartheid reality over this, possibly an inescapable consequence of them never having bothered to write a constitution - which is why they still don't actually offer Israeli nationality, only those with the right of residence (Jews), and those worthless non-Jewish and insufficiently-Jewish "others," sometimes barely tolerated (non-orthodox Jews, American evangelicals, women), more usually not. Refer e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html?_r=0 and http://electronicintifada.net/content/lawsuit-challenges-israels-discriminatory-citizenship-definition/8767
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Fritz
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Re:Sharia
« Reply #7 on: 2013-04-30 18:36:23 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2013-04-28 12:49:23
"This is not actually the case; Israel is a secular state applying many kinds of religious law in certain areas for certain communities, only one of which is Jewish. Islamic and other religious law also may be an option for religious communities in Israel."
Typical special apologetics for Israel, but totally misleading if not technically absolutely untrue. Still if you believe this malarkey, there may be a certain bridge in Brooklyn waiting just for you... Try, for a nightmarish example, to get a civil marriage between a couple, one of whom is Jewish; or a non-Jewish divorce, in Israel. refer e.g. http://www.myjewishlearning.com/israel/Contemporary_Life/Society_and_Religious_Issues/Freedom_of_Religion/civil_marriage_in_israel.shtml
As was the custom in those more enlightened times, the UN conditionally established Israel on the basis that it would be a constitutional, humanist state providing equal secular governance for all. As has been the case ever since, Israel has scribbled its own fascist-Talmudic-apartheid reality over this, possibly an inescapable consequence of them never having bothered to write a constitution - which is why they still don't actually offer Israeli nationality, only those with the right of residence (Jews), and those worthless non-Jewish and insufficiently-Jewish "others," sometimes barely tolerated (non-orthodox Jews, American evangelicals, women), more usually not. Refer e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html?_r=0 and http://electronicintifada.net/content/lawsuit-challenges-israels-discriminatory-citizenship-definition/8767
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So the Orthodox Jewish faith has a direct impact on the Israeli legal system and it's citizens, as do Islamic and Christen doctrine in many other countries around the world. So does my comments that Sharia Law is just another religious dogma that rides shotgun over civil and common law in many countries, as does Judaism and Christianity, make sense ? All of which needs fixing by separating Church and State. I wonder if that could work? 'Cause it hasn't so far to my mind anywhere .
Cheers
Fritz
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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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Hermit
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Re:Sharia
« Reply #8 on: 2013-04-30 21:06:08 » |
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As you apparently know, law, like religion, merely reflects the reality of the society in which it is embedded. In primitive, brutal societies, where life is harsh and social support minimal, religion and law both tend to be primitive, Manichean and nasty. That is because both law and religion are made up, interpreted and implemented by people who are what they are because of their genes and environment - including the delusions fostered by religion and foisted on believers before they are wise enough to reject them. In this way, religious ideas become "natural laws" in their thinking, and are no more able to be rejected by the believer than gravity.When people are imbued with magical ideals and absolutes and convinced, through faith or greed, of their own rectitude, their willingness to engage in higher thought is preempted by UTism or, worse, MEism. So, no, attempted separation of church and state isn't likely to succeed anywhere else in the world any better than it has in the least free society on Earth, the USA (at least in the sense of most incarcerated, and arguably on other metrics too).
Thus, Sharia Law is not an exception, any more than Mosaic law or e.g. "Sabbath Observation" and "Blasphemy" ordinances are "exceptions". Religious "law" is, for religious societies, the rule - even when it is projected by members of that society, as in, for example, the UK and USA, as having been somehow freed from religion. It is true that religion, being based in and on society is no more constant than society is, so the case may be made that with societies becoming less religious, so too, law is becoming less religious, but it wouldn't be accurate. So long as law dabbles with morality and its enforcement, while courts engage more with punishment of those seen by authoritarian society to have transgressed rather than the protection of society, and with guilt and punishment being assigned on an essentially arbitrary basis rather than protective and preventive measures being taken based on facts and culpability, law will remain quintessentially religious.
There are some small grounds for hope if resource constraints or UTic mindsets do not eliminate us first. Modern humanistic civilisation mandates the elimination of church. mosque, temple and synagogue, the associated mindsets and particularly their indoctrination of children if it is to thrive. In much of the world, this is occurring automagically, as the more socially aware discover that the old UTic practices leave their followers increasingly unsuited to compete on an equal footing on a horribly overpopulated planet, and the influence of those not capable of recognising or adapting to this reality wanes.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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