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Topic: The CoV on Transhumanism (Read 776 times) |
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Sasquatch
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The CoV on Transhumanism
« on: 2007-11-08 12:05:41 » |
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After having read so much about your religion here I am quite fascinated by it, and for anyone even remotely interested in intellectual discussion it seems like an ideal place with many valuable and contributing members.
So, what I would like to ask now is what does the Church of Virus think on Transhumanism? Given that vision is one of the virtues here I?d wager that your all more in support of it then against it. But, regardless, I?d still like to hear your views, as there seems to be a surprising lack of discussion on Transhumanism here ? or perhaps I just wasn?t looking in the right places.
What would humanity be like with unlimited intelligence? What if experimental animals got more intelligent? Would there be a reason to live indefinitely, or even 5 times longer? Would humans be considered any more alive a purely artificial being with equal intelligence? And of course would our so-called soul be destroyed in this process and would GOD let this happen?
These are only a few of the questions I can think of off the top of my head. This thread is for us to talk about Tranhumanism and it's obvious confliction with religion. Please feel free to post answers of your views to my questions or feel free to make your own questions to answer, or just give you own general point of view ? I?d be very interested to know.
At the moment, I'm against it. Mainly because I believe there isn't, or won't be enough resources to get the idea going.
I also don't see the necessity of it, other then to make us humans "better". I don't see the need to be stronger or faster. I think we as a race have done pretty well for so many years, why do we need to do things quicker? What is the hurry?
I perhaps see it being useful for those less able, such as people with missing limbs. But even then is it fair to say that technology is the reason for them losing their limbs in the first place? You can't lose your arm in a car crash if there wasn't a car to crash into in the first place.
I?m not to sure overall. I personally think the idea will cause more pain then gain. It's bad enough we have people using weapons now to kill each other; can you imagine what they can do to anyone if they have transhuman power installed into them?
The world is in too much of a mess to afford, or properly and ethically sustain such luxury I think? at least for now.
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Hermit
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Re:The CoV on Transhumanism
« Reply #1 on: 2007-11-09 00:42:06 » |
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[Sasquatch] After having read so much about your religion here I am quite fascinated by it, and for anyone even remotely interested in intellectual discussion it seems like an ideal place with many valuable and contributing members.
[Hermit] Interesting. Thank-you for the compliments.
[Sasquatch] So, what I would like to ask now is what does the Church of Virus think on Transhumanism?
[Hermit] The CoV has no dogma. We recommend our members think for themselves. Sometimes, the congregation can achieve a strong consensus - or a weak consensus. I am not sure this is one of those times. After all, even the definition and undoubtedly the implications of transhumanism are weak.ly defined How would you describe them?
[Sasquatch] Given that vision is one of the virtues here I’d wager that your all more in support of it then against it. But, regardless, I’d still like to hear your views, as there seems to be a surprising lack of discussion on Transhumanism here – or perhaps I just wasn’t looking in the right places.
[Sasquatch]
[Hermit] You may be right about the tendency to support forward thinking concepts. Perhaps the lack of discussion because this is not a transhumanism forum and not many of the vocal members find the topic sufficiently challenging - or interactive - to spend time on it here?
[Sasquatch] What would humanity be like with unlimited intelligence?
[Hermit] More Virian perhaps. Clearly the CoV tends to attract highly gifted individuals.
[Sasquatch] What if experimental animals got more intelligent?
[Hermit] How intelligent? If they even approached the low end of the human intelligence scale, then there is no ethical argument that could be used to support treating them as more - or less - valuable than humans. After all, it is to all intents and purposes, our intelligence that differentiates us, from our cousins the apes.
[Sasquatch] Would there be a reason to live indefinitely, or even 5 times longer?
[Hermit] This question appears to be missing a conditional. Would there be x if y? Almost irrespective of the absent y, I can reply that that would depend almost entirely on the quality of life attained. Do you not agree?
[Sasquatch] Would humans be considered any more alive a purely artificial being with equal intelligence?
[Hermit] Interpolating your question to be, "Would humans be considered any more alive than a purely artificial being with equal intelligence?" It is possible, but it would be a dreadful error. Unfortunately your premise seems flawed, being asserted as a bifurcation whereas in reality the questions are a great deal more complex. In all likelihood this wont occur. A Spirothete is likely to arise only as did our awareness, as a result of the application of genetic algorithms. Four critical differences are likely to exist. Humans don't practice selection explicitly (self-selection is limited); humans cannot select for specific traits but have to accept a hodgepodge of good and bad during the (often inadvertent) process of selection; Darwinian evolution is not conservative, selection takes place based on immediate fitness, and failed gene lines are lost even though they might be fitter (better suited) for other circumstances; most significantly, humans practice selection once per generation (naturally about 13 or 14 years). Computers suffer none of these disadvantages and can practice deliberate, targeted selection millions of times per second. As such, the entire history of human development may be achieved by a goal directed selection process operating on specific traits in milliseconds, and our level of intelligence (such as it is) is likely to be exceeded in the first few seconds of running the algorithm. At which point a more proper question might be, "Would humans be considered to have any value to a purely artificial being with vastly superior intelligence?"
[Sasquatch] And of course would our so-called soul be destroyed in this process
[Hermit] Outside of a poetic construct, what is a "soul"?
[Sasquatch] and would GOD let this happen?
[Hermit] Outside of a plethora of myths invented by hairless apes of limited imaginations, dubious capability and questionable ethics, what are gods and why do you choose to use the singular? How do you decide whioch of the millions of these products of diseased minds to prefer?
[Sasquatch] These are only a few of the questions I can think of off the top of my head.
[Hermit] Perhaps you should not dash questions off the top of your head, but instead vest thought and research in phrasing them. Ask for advice as to where to look. The degree of cross-disciplinary knowledge here is nothing short of staggering. Wasting the time of others is impolite.
[Sasquatch] This thread is for us to talk about Tranhumanism and it's obvious confliction with religion.
[Hermit] Perhaps it depends on definition of transhumanism. Or of religion. Care to share? Where do you see a conflict?
[Sasquatch] Please feel free to post answers of your views to my questions or feel free to make your own questions to answer, or just give you own general point of view – I’d be very interested to know.
[Hermit] Consider this as a collection of hints and questions. Try searching for spirothetes and transhumanism on our SITE, BBS and WIKI for references and more discussion.
[Sasquatch] At the moment, I'm against it. Mainly because I believe there isn't, or won't be enough resources to get the idea going.
[Hermit] What resources do you think are needed? Why do you think they won't be available? What timeline do you think we are discussing? Are you a catastrophist? Are you referencing the peak oil disaster? The collapse of the USA? Something else?
[Sasquatch] I also don't see the necessity of it, other then to make us humans "better". I don't see the need to be stronger or faster.
[Hermit] Is this the extent of what you see as the future of humanity? How long do you expect us to survive? How do you see our future? 5, 50, 500, 5 000, 50 000, 500 000, 5 million years from now.
[Sasquatch] I think we as a race have done pretty well for so many years, why do we need to do things quicker?
[Hermit] Is this an attempted Argument from Antiquity?
[Sasquatch] What is the hurry?
[Hermit] The median period for which a family has been dominant is 5 million years. We have been around for at least 3.8 million years (though not necessarily dominant), and have in the last 200 years dramatically altered the planet and the distribution and availability of the resources our population requires. What makes you imagine their is no urgency?
[Sasquatch] I perhaps see it being useful for those less able, such as people with missing limbs.
[Hermit] How?
[Sasquatch] But even then is it fair to say that technology is the reason for them losing their limbs in the first place? You can't lose your arm in a car crash if there wasn't a car to crash into in the first place.
[Hermit] And if they had been scratched before the age of antibiotics they would have probably died of gangrene or systematic blood poisoning without first losing a limb.The extension of life, particularly for women, but also for men by modern science, after centuries of nasty, brutal and above all short lives in the hands of priests, speaks volumes for the relative value of priests and scientists,
[Sasquatch] I’m not to sure overall.
[Hermit] It is noticeable.
[Sasquatch] I personally think the idea will cause more pain then gain. It's bad enough we have people using weapons now to kill each other; can you imagine what they can do to anyone if they have transhuman power installed into them?
[Hermit] Whatever makes you imagine that Transhumanism will involve the current apologies for ethics possessed by most of mankind?
[Sasquatch] The world is in too much of a mess to afford, or properly and ethically sustain such luxury I think… at least for now.
[Hermit] Elsewhere were you not arguing that the gods by murdering everyone but Noah, ensured that this is the best of all possible worlds. Or something. Perhaps you can attempt to resolve the apparent contradictions? Preferably without further apologetics. We really have seen them all. Better articulated than you appear competent to do.
Thanks.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Sasquatch
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Re:The CoV on Transhumanism
« Reply #2 on: 2007-11-10 11:55:33 » |
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Greetings Hermit, thanks for the reply. I like how you?ve turned most of my questions back at me  Quite tactful, and interesting too.
I?ll have to think on some of your questions a bit as I?m a little rushed for time right now. But I?ll answer you last one gladly:
Quote:| [Hermit] Elsewhere were you not arguing that the gods by murdering everyone but Noah, ensured that this is the best of all possible worlds. Or something. Perhaps you can attempt to resolve the apparent contradictions? Preferably without further apologetics. We really have seen them all. Better articulated than you appear competent to do. |
I guess the simplest and quickest way for me to answer would be to quote what I?ve just replied to Blunderov.
Quote:| Looks like you jumped the gun in assuming that I said this is a happy little paradise. I said nothing of the sort. My example merely suggested if there had been no flood then all the pain, suffering, death, misery, cruelty, humiliation, subjugation, and advertising would either have destroyed itself by now or turned this world into a true living hell. I did not suggest a flood would rid the world of such things, however. |
Besides, in 5000+ years a lot can happen, and change (obviously).
I hope that sufficiently answered at least one of your questions ? for now.
Thanks also.
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MoEnzyme
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Re:The CoV on Transhumanism
« Reply #3 on: 2007-11-16 07:35:33 » |
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SeTzertrANcer, #1 10/15/2007 at http://www.thefinalfantasy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57580
Quote:Of course there would be many questions to associate with this. What would humanity be like with unlimited intelligence? What if experimental animals got more intelligent? Would there be a reason to live indefinitely, or even 5 times longer? Would humans be considered any more alive a purely artificial being with equal intelligence? and of course would our so called soul be destroyed in this process and would GOD let this happen?
These are only a few of the questions I can think of off the top of my head. This thread is for us to talk about Tran humanism and it's obvious confliction with religion. post answers of your views to my questions or make your own questions to answer. As long as it's on topic. anything goes. |
and Harmonize; #5 at http://www.thefinalfantasy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57580 [same page]
Quote: At the moment, I'm against it. Mainly because I believe there isn't or won't be enough resources to get the idea going.
I also don't see the necessity of it, other then to make us humans "better". I don't see the need to be stronger or faster. I think we as a race have done pretty well for so many years, why do we need to do things quicker? What is the hurry?
I perhaps see it being useful for those less able, such as people with missing limbs. But even then is it fair to say that technology is the reason for them losing their limbs in the first place? You can't lose your arm in a car crash if there wasn't a car to crash into in the first place.
I dunno. I personally think the idea will cause more pain then gain. It's bad enough we have people using weapons now to kill each other, can you imagine what they can do to anyone if they have that kind of power installed into them? |
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