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Topic: Death to the burqa (Read 8969 times) |
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MoEnzyme
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Death to the burqa
« on: 2009-06-23 15:06:00 » |
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http://www.breakingnewsonline.net/2009/06/french-president-nicolas-sarkozy-says.html
I'm with Sarkozy on this. And I think there is a relatively culturally neutral issue here and that comes down to a more basic issue of human communication. Compared to other religious paraphenalia, the visual obstruction of the the face for whatever reason cuts down on communications necessary for social trust. If you can't see the expression of the person you are communicating with, the possibilities for deception go up considerably in face to face communication. Societal interest in promoting candor among among participants in business, education, and other public transactions trumps any attempts to defeat that through religious convention. If you want to play stupidly deceptive games like that behind closed doors, I don't care - that's your business, but if you want to bring that shit into the public sphere, into other's places of business, etc., you may find that kind of behavior easily and often regulated if not outright prohibited. If its a costume party, fine, but otherwise don't expect any tolerance for that kind of idiocy. Beyond that, if you want to conceal every other inch of your body-hair etc. that's more your business than mine.
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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Walter Watts
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #1 on: 2009-06-23 21:04:05 » |
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Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2009-06-23 15:06:00
http://www.breakingnewsonline.net/2009/06/french-president-nicolas-sarkozy-says.html
I'm with Sarkozy on this. And I think there is a relatively culturally neutral issue here and that comes down to a more basic issue of human communication. Compared to other religious paraphenalia, the visual obstruction of the the face for whatever reason cuts down on communications necessary for social trust. If you can't see the expression of the person you are communicating with, the possibilities for deception go up considerably in face to face communication. Societal interest in promoting candor among among participants in business, education, and other public transactions trumps any attempts to defeat that through religious convention. If you want to play stupidly deceptive games like that behind closed doors, I don't care - that's your business, but if you want to bring that shit into the public sphere, into other's places of business, etc., you may find that kind of behavior easily and often regulated if not outright prohibited. If its a costume party, fine, but otherwise don't expect any tolerance for that kind of idiocy. Beyond that, if you want to conceal every other inch of your body-hair etc. that's more your business than mine.
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"Paris: French President Nicolas Sarkozy has taken a tough stand on the use of Muslim Burqas and said that they won't be allowed in France."
Mo.
Isn't it the "requirement" imposed on women to wear Burqas that you are opposed to?
What if a woman WANTS to wear a Burqa of her own volition?
Shouldn't she be free to do that?
Walter
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Walter Watts
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Hermit
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #2 on: 2009-06-23 22:09:38 » |
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<snip>
[Walter] What if a woman WANTS to wear a Burqa of her own volition? Shouldn't she be free to do that?
[Hermit]
How do you tell the difference Walter?
To me, there is a much more compelling, eminently French reason to ban the burqa (or better transliteration, burqu‘). One where it is utterly irrelevant whether the politicians doing so are nationalist thugs or not.
France has a tradition of celebrating the female body, face and modes of adornment. Difficult to accomplish when the body or face are hidden under layers of hideous, shapeless bags. So to any French person, the burqa is a very untraditional trammelling as well as being singularly unattractive in its own right. Sufficient reason to ban it.
Q.E.D.
Kindest regards
Hermit & Co
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #3 on: 2009-06-24 10:01:28 » |
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"Paris: French President Nicolas Sarkozy has taken a tough stand on the use of Muslim Burqas and said that they won't be allowed in France."
Mo.
Isn't it the "requirement" imposed on women to wear Burqas that you are opposed to?
What if a woman WANTS to wear a Burqa of her own volition?
Shouldn't she be free to do that?
Walter
Walter,
No. Or rather it is a desire that remains subordinate to societal interests in face-to-face candor. For example, I don't think anyone has a right to to conceal his/her face in the context of public education & classrooms. I don't think wearing a burqa in a convenience store is any greater right than wearing a stocking over one's head & face. I've seen numerous Halloween season warnings on store doors not to wear masks into the business. I think that's the same kind of interest I'm pressing in my sympathies for banning the burqa.
Other than some vague abstract agreement with feminists, I'm not so concerned about women's interests on this. I'm sure women can figure that out for themselves - usually its not my place or concern; my conclusions remain the same whether its a man or woman wanting to wear a burqa - I'm on the side of the community that has to deal with you hiding your face regardless of whether its you, your spouse, or the The Great Pumpkin, who desires your concealment thereof.
-Mo
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Blunderov
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #4 on: 2009-06-24 11:02:59 » |
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Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2009-06-24 10:01:28 | ...it is a desire that remains subordinate to societal interests in face-to-face candor. |
[Blunderov] In South Africa there is, or was(?), a law against disguising oneself. And, due to the predations of the erstwhile Stander Gang who used this MO, banks will not admit persons wearing motorcycle crash helmets.
Should the ban be extended to 'hoodies'? In my neighborhood the local meth-head car burglars have taken to wearing hoodies and large plastic sunglasses (no matter whether it is day or night) in order to avoid identification by my security cameras.
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #5 on: 2009-06-24 11:38:45 » |
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2009-06-24 11:02:59
Quote from: MoEnzyme on 2009-06-24 10:01:28 | ...it is a desire that remains subordinate to societal interests in face-to-face candor. |
[Blunderov] In South Africa there is, or was(?), a law against disguising oneself. And, due to the predations of the erstwhile Stander Gang who used this MO, banks will not admit persons wearing motorcycle crash helmets.
Should the ban be extended to 'hoodies'? In my neighborhood the local meth-head car burglars have taken to wearing hoodies and large plastic sunglasses (no matter whether it is day or night) in order to avoid identification by my security cameras.
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It sounds like a reasonable concern to me. Our faces are so closely associated with our identities, that I think in some circumstances society has a reasonable interest in our not concealing it, no matter personal or cultural desires. This goes for "hoodies" too where they effectively conceal one's identity.
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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Walter Watts
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #6 on: 2009-06-24 21:22:33 » |
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Hermit, Mo and Blunderov.
Points well taken.
I can see the need for limited abridgement of personal rights in favor of a greater benefit to society on this issue now.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
These types of insights are why I'm in the CoV after all.
Walter
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Walter Watts
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Mermaid
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #7 on: 2009-07-03 05:17:20 » |
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ridiculous. what about beards? dont they disguise/hide men's face too? this seems to be a targeted attack on france's muslim women. shame on sarkozy.
also, i dont think women(muslim or not) need to indulge men(or women's) need to appreciate the female form. we dont have to give it up for free. women should have the right to hide their bodies, faces, hair, whatever from lechers and losers. and bigots.
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Blunderov
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #8 on: 2009-07-03 06:58:36 » |
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[Blunderov] Privacy. This is quite a complex issue especially privacy in a public space. How much of it can one claim? How much must be sacrificed to the greater good? How to strike the balance?
A person who goes into a public space gives up a certain amount of their right to privacy; it is a 'public space'. But person may object to being photographed by a stranger (but not to photographs being taken from the street of their homes) - unless they are doing something illegal. Yet there are surveillance cameras at every turn and these are perfectly legal whether the subjects are doing anything illegal or not; they are considered to be in the greater interest I suppose.
A person is entitled to the privacy of their bodies whether in a public space or not - unless they are being body searched by the police. Similarly with identities although, again, not always; certain officials may demand one's name and address under certain circumstances. The test for permissible privacy (in the legal sense) is usually, I believe, whether a person is exercising that right with an intent to defraud or not; whether it is so to speak, an 'honest' privacy or a devious one. This is not always so easy to determine from mere appearances though.
In the case of, for instance, Muslim women who wish to shield themselves from lascivious gazing it is clear (to me) that they meet this test; it is not their intention to defraud or deceive. But if the practice were to arise of criminals disguising themselves as Muslim women in order to perpetrate robberies it might well transpire that the burqa would be banned in places where cash was kept. Again (what is considered to be) the greater interest would probably take precedence.
So yes, I agree that persons should be able to conceal themselves in public by means of clothing if they so choose, if and only if, it is not with mischievous intent.
Is promoting a religious agenda by means of costume mischievous? It might be construed as such depending on the social context. Apparently Sarkozy thinks that, in France anyway, this does amount to an inflammatory act. I don't happen to agree. But it is possible to imagine circumstances where, no matter what the intent, it might properly be considered in the greater interest of an orderly society to ban certain clothing.
The whole subject of public privacy is rife with contradiction and ambiguity. I think that it is useful to remember that there are various different sorts of privacy and correspondingly different motivations behind them. Of course one should also take into consideration what the motivations of the authorities might be in any particular instance!
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Hermit
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #9 on: 2009-07-03 07:39:41 » |
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[Mermaid] also, i dont think women(muslim or not) need to indulge men(or women's) need to appreciate the female form. we dont have to give it up for free. women should have the right to hide their bodies, faces, hair, whatever from lechers and losers. and bigots.
[Hermit] While it is, of course, true that the Mermaid is not French and apparently utterly fails to comprehend the civilization of France, and perhaps doesn't even think very much of it, perhaps she misses the point that it is not for her to dictate how the French should think of these things.
[Hermit] In France and in countries where the French influence was pervasive, including Islamic countries like the Lebanon, people tend to be proud of their bodies and celebrate them with flair and style. The idea that because there may potentially be some "lechers, losers and bigots" in the audience (how do you tell the difference, and what is wrong with lechery anyway?), means that people should not dress, or undress to exhibit themselves as well as they can, sounds like a total logical collapse.
[Hermit] Why, if we take Mermaid's attitude to its logical conclusion, the presence of a single "lecher, loser or bigot" would immediately cause the closure of every naturist resort, topless beach and fashion mall in a country, and then what would you have? Brighton on a rainy day. I find it difficult to think of anything more depressing.
[Hermit] When visiting a tourist destination, the French (and the Russian and the Lebanese and Vietnamese and many others from French cultures) visitor is usually immediately identifiable. On a beach they tend not to have tan lines and elsewhere they are tend to be dressed to the nines. They don't have to be, and clearly they cannot know if the audience is filled with "lechers, losers and bigots" or not, but that doesn't matter. For the person with a French attitude, it is about the self, not about the other, and relinquishing that self-pride to become accepting of the mindset of people who think that hiding under a bag - whether for religious reasons or logical failure - is desirable, would be rather sad.
[Hermit] And make no mistake, the fact that Polynesian ladies no longer perambulate in the nude but bury themselves under mother-hubbards and the modern equivalents, shows how just a few people, whether missionaries, mistaken moralists or militant misogynists can destroy an entire culture.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #10 on: 2009-07-03 13:37:57 » |
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2009-07-03 05:17:20 | ridiculous. what about beards? dont they disguise/hide men's face too? |
absurd.
With or without beards you can biometrically identify people by their face, as well as detect facial expressions. A burqa blocks both of these things . . . indeed many feminists have persuasively argued that this is exactly the purpose of a burqa, to strip women of their identity and to effectively exclude or discount them from meaningful social interaction. Whether or not that is in fact the intention of any particular woman who may or may not actually herself have chosen to wear one is completely irrellevant. Your right to wear a burqa is reasonably no greater than your right to wear a mask . . . or rather any other kind of mask, because that's exactly what a burqa is. To not recognize that is simply absurd.
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Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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Mermaid
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #11 on: 2009-07-03 20:44:44 » |
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none of your arguments holds water. it all boils down to individual freedom. if a woman wants to cover herself with a burqa or mud or even go naked, she should be able to..that is the meaning of true freedom.
it is ironic that muslim women are pitied in the 'western' world for their lack of freedoms in theor own lands and their 'imprisonment' behind veils is mourned by all the progressives, yet their choice to live behind veils is also condemned by western male patriarchy. cant a muslim sister get a fucking break?
now, before anyone brings it up..i do agree that public nudity is also frowned upon by many. that too is an infringement of freedom. those who would like to whine about it should work towards making public nudity acceptable rather than take away the few freedoms women enjoy on our planet.
p.s. france is not paris alone.
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Mermaid
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #12 on: 2009-07-03 20:52:26 » |
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btw...islamic headscarves were banned in french schools in 2004. a headscarf is not a burqa. none of the presented arguments can defend that decision. clearly, this isnt about french style, but about stigmatising muslims in france.
meanwhile...what do nuns wear in france? do french nuns have more fashion flair than the nuns from elsewhere...i'd like to know...a body bag is a body bag is a body bag..be it islamic or xian. waiting for the day sarkozy and france dictates how xian nuns in france are ruining their fashion reputation and decide to ban those ugly black body bags..curtailing women's freedoms by making them wear habits and whats with the towel over their shaved heads? put them in bikinis, he'd say..sarkozy..he's so *dreamy*
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Hermit
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #13 on: 2009-07-03 21:33:39 » |
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In Shakespeare's time a whorehouse was often referred to as a nunnery, hence Hamlet's admonition to Ophelia, "Get thee to a nunnery." Had the nuns been nude and had cute buns, perhaps Hamlet would have hied there himself, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern might not have died, Tom Stoppard would have had to look elsewhere for inspiration and literature would have been poorer for it.
The moral of the story being that nude French nuns with cute clenched buns might make Christianity altogether too attractive. Fortunately there is little chance of that. It is the ugly girls that are sent to the convents to wear bags over their heads.
As the mother superior said to the nun in a bikini, "It's very nice dear, but don't make a habit of it."
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Ban the burqa
« Reply #14 on: 2009-07-04 03:06:44 » |
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2009-07-03 20:44:44
none of your arguments holds water. |
Obviously you are only responding to Hermit now, because I have only made one argument although I have restated it in several different ways now . . . your right to wear a burqa is reasonably no greater than your right to wear any other kind of mask. That's the clearest I think I can make it. Perhaps you and Hermit might start a new thread for your de-facto private conversation.
Stick a fork in me, 'cause I'm obviously done. 
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Mo Enzyme
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