From: Jonathan Davis (jonathan.davis@lineone.net)
Date: Tue Aug 13 2002 - 18:19:43 MDT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
To: <virus@lucifer.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:25 AM
Subject: Re:virus: Observer on Palestinian vigilanttes
>
> [Jonathan Davis 2] Back to the old "you don't know therefore you are
wrong". Genocides are hard
> to hide. Show me the evidence.
>
> [Hermit 3] I have posted sufficient information to illustrate why Israeli
actions should be regarded as genocide.
Not to convince me even nearly. What I do see is classic sophistry and
advocacy of a genocide theory.
>
> [Hermit 3] That you do not regard it as genocide is opinion unsupported by
fact.
The reverse is true. The burden of proof lies with you, not me. I remain
unconvinced, sorry.
>
> [Jonathan Davis 2] I am not a big one for faith. The last time I looked
the Palestinians were rapidly growing in number and actively supporting the
mass murder of >Israeli civilians.
>
> [Hermit 3] Infant mortality alone tells the story. Figures are deaths per
100'000.Jewish Israeli: 5
> Arab Israeli: 9
> Arab Occupied Territories: 32+
It tells the story of poverty, cultural differences which have an impact on
health and a very high birth rate for Palestinians (the ones who are being
exterminated according to you). That one group is slightly healthier than
the other tells us nothing. We in the west are vastly more healthy than
Africans - are we committing genocide? Nope.
>
> [Hermit 3] Please note again:Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the
death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm,
prevention of births >and transfer of children are acts of genocide when
committed as part of a policy to destroy a group's existence.
Given that the group simply exists as an ethnic conglomeration, to destroy
the groups existence would necessitate the mass murder of all the members.
That would be a genocide. But as you know there is no policy to destroy this
or any other groups existence.
>
> [Jonathan Davis 2] That they live in poverty and under tyranny is not
unusual. It is the norm for much of the Islamic world.
>
> [Hermit 3] Most of Africa does too. And the point is?
Exactly.
>
> [Hermit 1] The UN seems to be in disgreement with you.
>
> [Jonathan Davis 2] Oh yeah? The UN has says Israel is committing a
genocide? Where?
>
> [Hermit 3] e.g. Resolution 1322(2000): Clause 3
(http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/2000/res1322e.pdf) [quote]Calls upon Israel,
the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its
responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the
Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949;[/url]
Where does the UN or any other body show evidence that there is a policy to
destroy the groups existence? It does not. It calls for Israel to abide
"scrupulously " - which suggests - and only suggests - that there are minor,
if any transgressions. It says "please play fair" not "you are playing
foul".
>
> [Hermit 3] It is clear from the above that the Security Council does not
regard Israel to be in compliance with its legal obligations and its
responsibilities under the >Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, in clause 1
(supra) the Security Council by a vote of 14 to 0 made it very clear that it
was Sharon's desecration of the Haram >al-Sharif with the support of Prime
Minister Barak that is responsible for the start of the current round of
bloodshed and warfare in occupied Palestinian Lands >today. Contravention of
the Fourth Protocol constitutes genocide as defined in the aforereferenced
1948 convention.
This is your interpretation. It is no more than opinion and is duly treated
as such.
>
> [Hermit 3] Further, the state of Israel accepted the founding of the
Palestine and the right of Palestinian refugees to return to Israel. Today
there are nearly 5 >million of these refugees scattered around the Middle
East. If that does not constitute "forcible relocation" then nothing does.
LOL! 5 million refugees who's ancestors went of their own accord to where
they are settled now and grew massively.
>
> [Hermit 1] Hell, even dubya disagrees with you (sometimes anyway).
>
> [Jonathan Davis 2] Oh yeah? The Dubya has said Israel is committing a
genocide? Where?
>
> [Hermit 3] Refer the US State Department, Annual Human Rights Report,
February 2001
> "Israeli security forces committed numerous serious human rights abuses
during the year" and "sometimes exceeded their rules of engagement, which
provide that >live fire is only to be used when the lives of soldiers,
police, or civilians are in imminent danger."
>
> "Since the violence began, Israeli security units often used excessive
force against Palestinian demonstrators." the report said. Last May, the
report noted, Israeli security forces killed six Palestinians and wounded up
to 700 at demonstrations in which Palestinians were protesting the continued
incarceration of Palestinians in Israeli jails. [Source
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/02/26/rights.report/ ]
Ummm....Hermit. You asserted there is a genocide underway. This report
alleges there were serious human rights abuses during the year. It says the
same of the PA and hundreds of other countries.
It also only refers to activities by the IDF in conflict with
streetfighters. No mention of anything even approaching genocide or anything
like it. Please stick to the discussion at hand.
> [Hermit 3] And "President Bush leveled some of his harshest criticism yet
of Israel yesterday as his special envoy left Washington in a bid to halt a
spiraling >civilian death toll in the nearly 18-month-old Palestinian
uprising." and "We remain very concerned about repeated Israeli Defense
Force actions that result in high >numbers of Palestinian casualties,
including casualties, whether it's deliberate or not, of civilians and
humanitarian workers," spokesman Scott McClellan said. [Source
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020314-99901693.htm ]
Yep, more war related criticism, no sign of genocidal anythings.
>
> [Hermit 3] So, from the above we see that even the US regards Israel as
performing actions which are illegal.
Incorrect. We see that the US State Department (odd how you believe their
stuff when it looks like it might support you ) says there have been human
rights abuses. These could have been carried out by renegade soldiers.
Nowhere does it say that there is a policy to destroy the Palestinians.
You were the one who bandied the word genocide around and you cannot find a
single source to agree with you.
>The reason that they are illegal is that they are forbidden under the
Convention for the Prevention of Genocide. What does that make these
actions?
Please Hermit. Let me explain. A law against burning your wife to death
includes prohibiting arson like activities. Setting fire to a bush does not
equal burning your wife to death because it shares elements with the other
crime. genocide is about exterminating groups and no one is exterminating
the Palestinians - far from it - they are growing by the day.
>
> [Jonathan Davis 2] Not even decent Palestinians make this ludicrous claim.
>
> [Hermit 3] Francis A. Boyle, Professor in International Law, responsible
for the indictment of Milosovic for Genocide (in res Bosnia and Herzegovina
vs. >Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro)), certainly thinks so e.g.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis1.html. And that was well before the
latest round of gory >violence.
He thinks they have 'a valid claim' . He thinks it is worth the Palestinians
suing the Israeli state. He is one 'authority' , who's views and arguments
you have reproduced here and I have rejected with sound reason. he has also
probably changed his mind since the Palestinians started their suicide
bombings and he also knows that Israel could easily and probably would
counter sue against the Palestinians, its Arab neighbors and a slew of
terrorist organsiations that it has been subjected to a ceaseless war of
annihilation since its legal inception and that those so named continues to
prosecute their genocide to this day.
Regards
Jonathan
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