From: BIll Roh (billroh@churchofvirus.com)
Date: Thu Jan 10 2002 - 23:41:08 MST
I see several points of your argument that I have to disagree with Orlando. I'll
enumerate them.
1> Orlando: As I hope is illustrated by the point, how do people have the right
to decide who lives or dies?
Bill: I value the creature of society more than I value the individual animal.
In all cases I can think of: An ant colony before an individual ant, the herd
ahead lone buffulo, the village before an person. (don't expect me to be
impartial when it comes to family, but otherwise I can do it - I am human ya
know). There comes a point in cases like this at which any continuance of an
individual becomes and unacceptable factor in the mix of the whole. Mass
murderers, genocidal maniacs and the like are better off gone from society and
history as soon as possible. Don't think that I am suggesting that the
individual is not important, in the context of individuality that is.
2> Orlando: They must NOT be executed because how can the West possibly condemn
Osama if they, when provoked are willing to jump do exactly the same as he.
Bill: Ah, so to you there is no difference between targeting innocent civilians
- by his own admission that civilians are legit targets - and executing admitted
mass murderers. I would have to fundamentally disagree. Is all death bad? Is all
sex, "rape"? Is all killing, "murder"? If you can't say "no" to all of these,
then I think the gap between us is too great on this issue.
3> Orlando: Also, execution would be by no means a harsh punishment for Mr.
BinLaden; if he truly believes in Allah and his teachings, then he must believe
that if killed he will go straight to paradise and welcome a martyr to the
cause.
Bill: Who said anything about punishment? You are looking at Osama as if he were
a child to be corrected. This is not about revenge on Osama, or correction of
Osama. Nothing is about Osama any longer. He has done too much damage to be of
any consideration. I'm not interested in punishing him, I'm interested in the
completion of the memeset in his head by violent means as soon as possible so
that many others will not face death in the near future. His existence at this
stage could probably be measured to cost somewhere around 800 lives a month. Had
Osama not done what he did, thousands here and in Afganistan would be alive. The
sooner he is gone, the sooner people stop dying. Put the gun in your hand now -
Kill Osama now or let him live and kill 27 others around the world.
And MARTYR!!! Hah!!! - what a great call - I by no means think the
world is gonna end terrorism tomorrow - but with nearly every country in the
world working to stop it - Osama makes the successful and the powerful and the
political in every country back off. He has dealt Islam the biggest blow ever -
history the world over will see him as a evil criminal and fool.
The ONLY ways for him to live are:
1> Surrender - then I could consider a discussion on the punishment subject
2> Evade
Bill
Orlando Moltisanti wrote:
> Bill Roh wrote:
> "I must have missed it - but I do not think it weird that people take joy
> from
> the death and destruction of Osama and the Taliban. I certainly smile at the
> thought of their demise - bloody or not - and if I could, would cheerfully
> participate. I'm sorry, but I do not see a value in hiding behind the guise
> of "higher morals" to hide fear or an over zealous love of human life in all
> cases. Some people need to be killed for the betterment of the rest just as
> some need to be helped."
>
> I respond by a quote from Arthur Miller's "A View From The Bridge", Alfieri
> (a lawyer) is trying to explain to Marco (an Italian illegal immigrant) why
> he shouldn't resort to physical violence against the man who informed on
> him:
> "MARCO IS STARING AWAY. ALFIERI TAKES ONE OF HIS HANDS.
> Alfieri:This is not God, Marco. You hear? Only God makes justice."
>
> As I hope is illustrated by the point, how do people have the right to
> decide who lives or dies? Maybe Mr. BinLaden and his comrades should have
> understood this, but just because THEY didn't, doesn't mean the US
> shouldn't. We should be able to see "above" Mr. BinLaden's religion crazed
> form of "justice" and calmly try to capture him and his followers ALIVE!
> They must be tried by a fair court and sentenced to a certain period of
> punishment. They must NOT be executed because how can the West possibly
> condemn Osama if they, when provoked are willing to jump do exactly the same
> as he. I repeat, who are we to judge whether he should live or die? Also,
> execution would be by no means a harsh punishment for Mr. BinLaden; if he
> truly believes in Allah and his teachings, then he must believe that if
> killed he will go straight to paradise and become a martyr to the cause. Mr.
> BinLaden would be a danger to society if not imprisoned and that is why I
> feel that imprisonment is perfectly valid, but EXECUTION (!?) - no way. When
> some Greek philosopher in a roman epic I saw (I think it was called the fall
> of the r. empire or summut - with Sophia Lauren <sorry if that's not how you
> spell it>) won over the respect of some "barbarians" and got them to follow
> the law of Rome, he did so by enduring a burning torch that was pressed
> against his hand, not by yelling out and getting the guards to beat them -
> we can only be "right", as it were, (which in fact nothing can be,
> obviously) by showing that we have a "better" way, not by doing to them as
> they do to us. I know it's a phrase coined by a Judean preacher, but "turn
> the other cheek" pretty much applies here. I'm sure Osama had a right old
> laugh looking at the newspaper articles on the twin towers because he felt
> that the US was getting what it deserved for all it's "evil" deeds, and that
> is precisely why we must not do the same.
>
> Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo. Roly/Orly/Vinyacálë.
>
> Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo. Roly/Orly/Vinyacálë.
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